Stockton Beach - Permits/Consent Required

[Goz]

Like I said earlier Troy I don't mind having a permit system for the privilege of kiting on Stockton, but I'm just a bit concerned as to what the revenue raised from such a permit system is going towards. Will it mean that we will see an increase in patrols to keep people doing the wrong thing at Stockton in check?

The council here at Yeppoon is currently looking at putting up the fee for 4WD access here from $25 to $120 but people are concerned that the money will not see an improvement of facilities or patrols to keep the people doing the wrong thing in check.

I feel that asking where the extra revenue is going is a valid question.

[.Joel]

Like I said earlier Troy I don't mind having a permit system for the privilege of kiting on Stockton

HAH! A "privilege" to use a public beach? Get a f****** grip!

A few things I'm not sure on and a few things I am...

Why is there a desire for a permit for individuals to use Stockton? If anything the permit should cater to those organising the event and their requirement to have a permit issued. Joe Public should not require a permit, all they should need is their own personal insurance, beyond that the last thing we need is having to sort individual permits for separate beaches in this country. There should be talks with the DECC about gaining event permits, and at most signage for kiters explaining the setup. With event permits you can have something like in SA, where if there's an event on they put out a small sign on the beach which shows "kite flying in progress." Out side of that if two, three, four guys want to just meet up on a weekend, or someone wants to travel up from the ACT there should be no need for them to have to sort a permit.

Here in Victoria for example we have locations we pay a nominal fee to use ($55 to $85) for most of them for a year. That allows the club here or Extreme Kites as we have our own permit for a couple of locations to use for our meets or events. If we go somewhere "unofficial" meaning we just have a spur of the moment thing the night before with a group of us you won't see me pulling out a Marquee, 10 banners and setting it all up. We will take a single feather, throw it up and we just drop all our kites and gear around it. If we have a permit for the location then we will take our circus setup with us.

@Troy, I can understand what you are trying to do and commend you for it. However I don't think you are being fair in your attitude to others stating if you don't have their backing you're just going to throw the toys out of the pram. Effectively you are saying to regular kiters to Stockton beach that what was once free you are now going to have to pay for. I'm hardly surprised that some who frequent Stockton are not thrilled with the setup. If you want the backing of the community then you need to take their opinions and points of view forward to the DECC, otherwise you are just expecting everyone to agree with your views. In effect you are trying to lead a pro-active approach on something that will affect every land kiter to Stockton, the least that should be happening is taking their views and opinions on board.

There should not be this push to get regulated, there should not be this push to get classified as "vehicles" or any other road classifications. The last thing any kiter in this country wants is to be classified as a "vehicle." That will have ramifications for people in all states of the country kiting in parks, ovals and other places. We are not vehicles, we are merely wheeled toys and need to keep it that way.

If you need help speaking with the DECC, or need help to fund event permits and similar applications then let me know and we will see what we can do to help you. I am 100% pro-support for event permits, i'm not so keen on the idea of individuals needing regulation and permits.

That's my 5c.

Regards,

.Joel

[Andyfly]

Plus when you get a phone call from a person at work in Newcastle and the qoute was "Hey saw some of your mad mates on the weekend at stockton they looked like they owned the place" I wont say what the rest of the comments where, I Just said there not with me.

This is the very reason I go overseas for my holidays.......

one off peak weekend...... first day in deserted dunes....second day on miles of empty beach... bugger all 4wds....bugger all beach users......supporting the local economy..... and they still complain

The Videos show the conditions, the beach traffic and the way we were neatly setup in an out of the way unused spot and the way we were flying.....but hey...the local bloke was put out.... ... (dog owner??)

Thanks for your support Sinbad... .... I guess having an event with new and inexperienced flyers trying to improve their skills will have to be done on private property from now on just to keep your mates onside........

now back to topic

@ Troy I'm 100% behind you and your efforts...thanks

I also think events not private flyers should be required to seek permits.....

Andy

[JKS]

I also think events not private flyers should be required to seek permits.....

Andy

I think ya hit the nail on the head

[.Joel]

Information overload here... I have just been speaking with Warren (the ranger who is responsible for Stockton), give me a bit of time to get all the points I scribbled down in to some sort of readable english.

Regards,

.Joel

[milko]

I noticed a few things that have been said that are incorrect.. stockton is no longer crown land except for about 2% at the very northern end.. then about 20% is private property. the rest is national parks owned by the worimi people. and they decide which parts of the beach you may or may not use. those of you who came up here last weekend may have noticed the cable fencing as you take the birubi beach entrance.. as you drive in if you look right that is all private property owned by the blanch family. hectares of it.. for sale to if your keen to purchase a big hunk of birubi..once you reach the vehicle operators entrance on your left about 400 mtrs in.. that little section there is crown land still..then the rest is just like a patchwork of worimi and private property.. a lot of the houses you see coming in on nelson bay road there properties extend right into the dunes.. then there is the sand mines. I live here and even with a map in front of me i find it confusing..it used to be 90% crown land governed by the council and then like half of port stephens the worimi people came in and dropped land rights on the place( don't get me started on this ) remember tomtie land.. the fun park at salt ash on your left on nelson bay road.. used to be a thriving council owned fun-park.. then the worimi claimed it and drove it into the ground.. at the end of my street there was development of a harbourside haven retirement village that was suppose to take 18 months to build.. then worimi got into it..17 years later it is almost completed..i could rabble on for ages but i am starting to sound racist..i happin to be friends with several aboriginals..i just wish they would leave things alone..

[lickedysplit_au]

I also think events not private flyers should be required to seek permits.....

Andy

Completely agree with that Andy however my opinion means nothing in the grand scale of what the DECC will and wont allow on the beach.

So you ALL know, this came to a head on Friday (before I had even seen the beach or MayDay had begun). There were 3 kiters in the dunes that were approached by a ranger informing them they need a permit for what they were doing. A phone number was taken down and passed on to me. So this is something that was passed on to me which I stupidly decided to take on board and help sort out.

I then made the necessary phone call, gained approval for our weekend activites (something that was attempted previously) and was duely informed that in future a permit or concent was needed to undertake these activities.

Despite rumors circulating this DID NOT come to a head on Saturday due to were we were set up or where we were kiting.

I will leave the rest of this post and next post to Mr Joel.

[JKS]

There were 3 kiters in the dunes that were approached by a ranger informing them they need a permit for what they were doing.

Name and shame ... name and shame

(Just joking)

Access is an issue that is slowly but surely going to encroach out game. As much as we might want to avoid it ... at the end of day we wield large weapons and can reach high speeds. Our toys can fug ppl up. Although we have very little impact on the environment we enjoy, We are VERY visual and will ALWAYS have our presence felt.

It is interesting to hear from a local regular user (Milko) just as much as it is to hear a bit of passion (Schmick)

I believe Luke and Dave are regular users of the great Stockton .... what about you 2 x 2c Guys !!

Keep it up Troy .... if I took all the negative on board there is no way I would have built the Cougar

Marty

[Andyfly]

So you ALL know, this came to a head on Friday (before I had even seen the beach or MayDay had begun). There were 3 kiters in the dunes that were approached by a ranger informing them they need a permit for what they were doing. A phone number was taken down and passed on to me. So this is something that was passed on to me which I stupidly decided to take on board and help sort out.

I then made the necessary phone call, gained approval for our weekend activites (something that was attempted previously) and was duely informed that in future a permit or concent was needed to undertake these activities.

Thank you for your efforts Troy........... in hopefully starting the ball rolling in making the rules and regulations, that have to be made with a lot of interests considered, FAIR, CLEAR and ACCURATE that are known to ALL so that future events at this and other locations can be run smoothly and legally.

The events after all..... are about kiting and having FUN

Andy

[.Joel]

Hi Guys,

I have spent a bit of time on the phone today talking with Troy, then talking with Warren from the DECC.

So far what I have managed to find out / understand is the following information.

* We are not Classified via the RTA

Kite Buggies are not classified by the RTA, therefor we can not be given consent as there's no classification for us.

* No Recreational Classification

Riding bikes, prams, walking, running etc are all recreational activities. Kite Buggying is not classified, therefor we have no recreational consent as we have no classification as a recreational activity.

* Kite Buggying is currently Unlawful

As there is no classification for us via the RTA or through a recreational activity our actions are unclassified, therefor deemed unlawful.

Now... Cars, Motor Bikes, 4wds are all classified clearly as vehicles. Just because we are unclassified does not mean there isn't room for interpretation. The sections under the acts allow room for interpretation, information back from the DECC Legal has said that on initial look we are not classified as human powered (ie bicycles), we are classified as wind powered and used for transport.

Now for catch 22...

Under the interpretation above it means that we are now an unlicensed / unregistered vehicle, and therefor it is unlawful to kite on Stockton without a permit. As there is no official classification for us there is no permit that exists for us.

Now you are not permitted to ride a motorbike for example through a national park, so being classified as a vehicle could have large implications to those kiting in parks or other spaces.

*There is room for flexibility

It is important to understand that there is room for flexibility, and you need to get together to make this work. IE: mud slinging via SMS, email and all the other behind the scenes bullshit is not going to help. It's not going to make this go away, if anything it will only attribute to the problem. If you want to kite stockton you need to be part of a solution. It's nearly shameful that there is more support coming for Troy interstate (out of NSW, IE: SA, ACT and VIC) then in his own backyard. This is your opportunity to share your views and opinions, as I did my own above. Not an opportunity to go slagging shit because you want to see how much you can stir the pot.

Back on to flexibility (I feel better now )... there is nowhere in NSW on Crown land you can have a dog. However on Stockton you are permitted to have a dog on a lead. This clearly shows that there is room for scope and flexibility.

If 40 4WDs roll up as part of something commercial there's a consent form to allow this action to take place. If 2 4WDs rock up as individuals they just go on and use it as a day pass. There are consent forms for each style of recreational and commercial activity to my understanding, however to get these they can only be issued to you under classification. If you're not classified, you can't get issued!

NOTE: here in Victoria at some of our beaches they have jurisdiction to the high tide mark. Stockton they hold jurisdiction to the low tide mark! Important to remember.

A process for the Stockton Beach, Worimi Lands and Hunter Coast is a 10 year plan. This is about to get started and drafted, it is where they look to what to expect on Stockton over the next 10 years and make rulings and classifications for it. It is a process where you as a community can be heard and they can build legislation / classifications in so that you can use Stockton and have legal rights encompassing your right to use it without anyone being able to kick you off. This may even be an opportunity to get things done right, whereby you don't need individual permits, rather just consent classification when running events. However, if kiting is not encompassed in this 10 year plan, there will not be room for it on Stockton.

Remember, the rangers do not want to kick people off Stockton. They simply want to be able to have you there where they don't need to turn a "blind eye" because this can not keep happening. Especially as kiting grows this is not a long-term possible scenario. They are more than interested in working with us as kiters, the rangers have gone forward to gather information and see how we can be incorporated to have recognised rights on Stockton Beach.

We will be receiving by Tuesday next week a response from the legal branch of the DECC as to their view on Kiting Sports. This will most likely be something that we can work from, and it will highlight areas of black and white, and areas of flexibility where we can work with them. It will also highlight if we need to get a Solicitor to assist us in our requests for a fair go on Stockton.

@Milko, the rangers have jurisdiction over the Worimi Conservation Lands, they do not operate on the Sacred Land. I had a private chuckle when your name was mentioned by the DECC. So i'm confident they are now reading this topic

I don't like the idea of individuals needing paid permits, only event organisers should require this in my opinion, so this is our chance to put forward and make it happen. The rangers were not involved because of where it was setup, it would have made no difference as it is still an unclassified activity on Stockton and all activities on Crown land need classification. In fact, the individuals who kited Stockton in October and went over the Sacred Land struck a more memorable cord with the Rangers / DECC than last weekend. If it went unnoticed for the next 2 years it would mean that when it was finally noticed that we would not have the opportunity to be part of the currently reforming 10 year plan for stockton and therefor no room for flexibility.

All the NSW consolidated acts here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/

I'm taking a read of this one at the moment: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/npawa1974247

The DECC are reading this topic to get an idea of our preferences. You can use it as an opportunity to share your own opinion, free of influence of anyone else and make it constructive. Or you can use it as an opportunity to try and "stick it to the man," it's your choice, choose whichever you think aids your real goals and motivations. Act in whichever way you believe will best serve your cause.

This topic is a good opportunity again to not only share opinions, but ourselves work out factually where the DECC's control exists, where it doesn't, and what our best avenues are to achieve an ideal outcome.

Regards,

.Joel

[Goz]

HAH! A "privilege" to use a public beach? Get a f****** grip!

I consider it a privilege to be able to kite anywhere, just because it's public land does not automatically give you any sort of rights to do whatever you want there. Also it's not just the beach we are talking about here it's the dunes as well.

Just like being able to have a license and drive a car is a privilege and not a right, do the wrong thing and that privilege can be taken away from you for as long as the law sees fit.

You are only legally allowed to use most public locations for kiting as long as the relevant authority that controls that public land allows you to do so, that's why it's always best to work with the authorities instead of against them.

Back to the point at hand though, I would still like to be allowed to kite at Stockton in the future and the permit for a group or event does sound like a better idea than an individual permit. It would also make it easier for those checking permits to do so rather than to having to go around to every individual and check they have the relevant permit.

[.Joel]

I consider it a privilege to be able to kite anywhere, just because it's public land does not automatically give you any sort of rights to do whatever you want there.

I guess going in already half bent over before you even get started is sort of the way some people like to negotiate, not surprised they don't get 5% of what they want at the end of it. Councils / Rangers are there to serve public interests, paid by us, NOT the other way around. So if there's enough public interest then this clearly shows an area they need to serve in.

Just like being able to have a license and drive a car is a privilege and not a right, do the wrong thing and that privilege can be taken away from you for as long as the law sees fit.

There are rights in this world. Just because something can be taken from you doesn't make it a "privilege." So when your rights are taken from you and then sold back to you in the form of a permit does this now make them a privilege?

So what do you call it now that there is no classification on Stockton for kite buggies? Now that they can't classify your "privilege." Where does that leave you?

[lickedysplit_au]

So what do you call it now that there is no classification on Stockton for kite buggies? Now that they can't classify your "privilege." Where does that leave you?

Half bent over I guess :D

Have got some great support rolling in on this here in the thread and off the thread which is awsome to see. Without the support, advice and assistance we are all going to be left without a Stockton to kite on which will seriously suck.

I appreciate and fully understand the frustration due to the apparent regulation that is being forced upon us and that is why I am putting in to get some official rights to kite at Stockton.

[jdhot]

Hi guys,

Named and shamed, I was one of the said kiters on Friday arvo that was spoken to,

it was whilst we were leaving the arena area from a very brief " watch a big buggy fly " session,

so there was 3 guys, 3 buggy's and 3 kites, this was nothing out of the ordinary

The ranger that came and spoke to us, was a great bloke and only wanted to help us have a great weekend

and many thanks to them for that.

I think everyone should have a right to kite there, and possibly events such as Mayday should require permits simply so the necessary authorities can take any action/directions required to provide everyones safety. As stated there are drunk 4X4 drivers and drivers purely not sure what to do when approaching a kite buggy, especially when we are spread over a few hundred metres zig zagging all over the beach for wind. I am also fully aware that when the wind direction is ideal we could be travelling for kilometres in either direction along the beach or buggying all over the dunes.

I'd like to see these events continue for the fun of all to enjoy and would be happy to assist in anyway possible

so as Joel has said we should all be banding together to work this out instead of complaining to one another.

JD

[Luke]

Hi Guys,

I have spent a bit of time on the phone today talking with Troy, then talking with Warren from the DECC.

So far what I have managed to find out / understand is the following information.

* We are not Classified via the RTA

Kite Buggies are not classified by the RTA, therefor we can not be given consent as there's no classification for us.

* No Recreational Classification

Riding bikes, prams, walking, running etc are all recreational activities. Kite Buggying is not classified, therefor we have no recreational consent as we have no classification as a recreational activity.

* Kite Buggying is currently Unlawful

As there is no classification for us via the RTA or through a recreational activity our actions are unclassified, therefor deemed unlawful.

Now... Cars, Motor Bikes, 4wds are all classified clearly as vehicles. Just because we are unclassified does not mean there isn't room for interpretation. The sections under the acts allow room for interpretation, information back from the DECC Legal has said that on initial look we are not classified as human powered (ie bicycles), we are classified as wind powered and used for transport.

Now for catch 22...

Under the interpretation above it means that we are now an unlicensed / unregistered vehicle, and therefor it is unlawful to kite on Stockton without a permit. As there is no official classification for us there is no permit that exists for us.

Now you are not permitted to ride a motorbike for example through a national park, so being classified as a vehicle could have large implications to those kiting in parks or other spaces.

*There is room for flexibility

It is important to understand that there is room for flexibility, and you need to get together to make this work. IE: mud slinging via SMS, email and all the other behind the scenes bullshit is not going to help. It's not going to make this go away, if anything it will only attribute to the problem. If you want to kite stockton you need to be part of a solution. It's nearly shameful that there is more support coming for Troy interstate (out of NSW, IE: SA, ACT and VIC) then in his own backyard. This is your opportunity to share your views and opinions, as I did my own above. Not an opportunity to go slagging shit because you want to see how much you can stir the pot.

Back on to flexibility (I feel better now )... there is nowhere in NSW on Crown land you can have a dog. However on Stockton you are permitted to have a dog on a lead. This clearly shows that there is room for scope and flexibility.

If 40 4WDs roll up as part of something commercial there's a consent form to allow this action to take place. If 2 4WDs rock up as individuals they just go on and use it as a day pass. There are consent forms for each style of recreational and commercial activity to my understanding, however to get these they can only be issued to you under classification. If you're not classified, you can't get issued!

NOTE: here in Victoria at some of our beaches they have jurisdiction to the high tide mark. Stockton they hold jurisdiction to the low tide mark! Important to remember.

A process for the Stockton Beach, Worimi Lands and Hunter Coast is a 10 year plan. This is about to get started and drafted, it is where they look to what to expect on Stockton over the next 10 years and make rulings and classifications for it. It is a process where you as a community can be heard and they can build legislation / classifications in so that you can use Stockton and have legal rights encompassing your right to use it without anyone being able to kick you off. This may even be an opportunity to get things done right, whereby you don't need individual permits, rather just consent classification when running events. However, if kiting is not encompassed in this 10 year plan, there will not be room for it on Stockton.

Remember, the rangers do not want to kick people off Stockton. They simply want to be able to have you there where they don't need to turn a "blind eye" because this can not keep happening. Especially as kiting grows this is not a long-term possible scenario. They are more than interested in working with us as kiters, the rangers have gone forward to gather information and see how we can be incorporated to have recognised rights on Stockton Beach.

We will be receiving by Tuesday next week a response from the legal branch of the DECC as to their view on Kiting Sports. This will most likely be something that we can work from, and it will highlight areas of black and white, and areas of flexibility where we can work with them. It will also highlight if we need to get a Solicitor to assist us in our requests for a fair go on Stockton.

@Milko, the rangers have jurisdiction over the Worimi Conservation Lands, they do not operate on the Sacred Land. I had a private chuckle when your name was mentioned by the DECC. So i'm confident they are now reading this topic

I don't like the idea of individuals needing paid permits, only event organisers should require this in my opinion, so this is our chance to put forward and make it happen. The rangers were not involved because of where it was setup, it would have made no difference as it is still an unclassified activity on Stockton and all activities on Crown land need classification. In fact, the individuals who kited Stockton in October and went over the Sacred Land struck a more memorable cord with the Rangers / DECC than last weekend. If it went unnoticed for the next 2 years it would mean that when it was finally noticed that we would not have the opportunity to be part of the currently reforming 10 year plan for stockton and therefor no room for flexibility.

All the NSW consolidated acts here: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/

I'm taking a read of this one at the moment: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/npawa1974247

The DECC are reading this topic to get an idea of our preferences. You can use it as an opportunity to share your own opinion, free of influence of anyone else and make it constructive. Or you can use it as an opportunity to try and "stick it to the man," it's your choice, choose whichever you think aids your real goals and motivations. Act in whichever way you believe will best serve your cause.

This topic is a good opportunity again to not only share opinions, but ourselves work out factually where the DECC's control exists, where it doesn't, and what our best avenues are to achieve an ideal outcome.

Regards,

.Joel

YouTube - "Where Do The Children Play"

Authorised vehicles ..........

YouTube - Raptor 660 Stack Stockton Beach

Dogs off lead, RTA approved bike, I'm sure.

This guy is ok, he is licenced & a park pass

He has a motor, he is classified.

sand dune preservation

........The Exxon Valdez

......... throw them in with kiters, unclassified.

YouTube - Stockton Beach lads you decide!

...................................

............. pollution, but its legal

...... i have had to help people like this, on the way to kiting

YouTube - CRAZY FOUR WHEEL DRIVING - STOCKTON BEACH - NSW - AUSTRALIA I see that every time I go up

Classify that!

[schmik]

* We are not Classified via the RTA

Kite Buggies are not classified by the RTA, therefor we can not be given consent as there's no classification for us.

* No Recreational Classification

Riding bikes, prams, walking, running etc are all recreational activities. Kite Buggying is not classified, therefor we have no recreational consent as we have no classification as a recreational activity.

* Kite Buggying is currently Unlawful

As there is no classification for us via the RTA or through a recreational activity our actions are unclassified, therefor deemed unlawful.

Joel, not a comment at you. Just a comment.....

Unclassified makes it unlawful? Really? I am not a lawyer but what happened to "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY". Don't we have a constitution in this country to protect us from this sort of thing. Would the DECC argument stand up in any sort of court?

Secondly, we are not a vehicle, especially a kiteboard or landboard (buggy or blowkart?????) and should not be classified as such. Thanks for your efforts guys!

mike

[.Joel]

Hi Schmik,

Don't worry i'm not taking anything personally, you can question anything I posted above! I merely was passing on what I found out and put it down how I interpreted what was conveyed to me over the phone and reading on various gov docs. I don't think it's a case of being "guilty." The rangers do not want to ban us, that's not what they are about. They are there to try and ensure the beach can be used by everyone, they try to make this happen to the best of their ability.

You can sum up the whole situation like this: "We want to have you kiting, but there's no classification under which we can give you consent to kite."

That's the whole crux of it. From what I understand is that on Crown land no unclassified activity can take place. So national parks etc, whatever activities take place (camping, hiking etc) must all be classified. If it's unclassified it can not take place on Crown land. So the rangers can't continue to turn a blind eye.

If anything, I view it as the rangers being more than happy to have us there as kiters, it's the bureaucratic paperwork above them that they need to conform with. Warren is more going in to bat for us, the amount of information he provided and ways that we can make this work for us was not the actions of someone wanting to cast a guilty judgement on anyone. At the same time, he can provide us information, but it ultimately up to us to push forward and leverage as much of the legislation in our favour as possible and making it work for us.

It took me a few seconds to comprehend the whole "unclassified = unlawful" scenario, which I thing is bullshit legislation. However from a government's point of view I guess it's easier to outlaw everything and approve somethings, then have everything allowed and chasing their tails banning everything. Purely a bean counter setup in that legislation.

In my opinion what we want is to be classified as a "wheeled recreational device."

wheeled recreational device means a wheeled device, built to transport a person, propelled by

human power or gravity, and ordinarily used for recreation or play, and:

(a) includes rollerblades, rollerskates, a skateboard or similar wheeled device; but

( does not include a golf buggy, pram, stroller or trolley, or a bicycle, wheelchair or

wheeled toy.

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/personal_transport/light_vehicles_pdfs/land_yachts_01.pdf

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/australian_road_rules/intro_main/Dictonary.PDF

I believe (and I say I believe because I haven't seen it in writing yet) that the AKFA had buggies in SA classed as wheeled toys / wheeled recreational devices.

Here's some documentation from the RTA, where there is classification for Wheeled Recreational Devices. This is what we should be aiming to be classified as because we are not land yachts or anything of that nature, nor are we transport vessles or devices. Under the RTA if we are classified as a recreational wheeled device a lot of the laws governing registered and non registered vehicles do not apply to us. We can then assume classification under a recreational activity and not require permits, beyond that we can then apply for consent for events such as MayDay.

Here's some info from the RTA: http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Reports/ARR_February_2009_final.pdf

The section to read (i've just taken a screenshot of the contents to look for):

[ATTACH]5768[/ATTACH]

Trying to do our best here to provide factual information, with as much supporting documentation as possible to get the best possible outcome.

Regards,

.Joel

[Dave Shepp]

Everyones efforts are definitely appreciated here

So this is the entire Stockton Beach that is in question or just the Warramai(?) lands???

I thought that there were actual designated kiting areas along Stockton.......

Fair enough to get the legislation going and everything but what about ALL the other ILLEGAL Activities that go on on that beach. If they want to figure out where we fit in then fine, we fly recreational kite's sometimes attached to Non Motorised Craft(be it board or buggy), and for most of us we are very mindful of all the beach users that we come across be they walkers, surfers, 4wd's(w/ Beer wielding passenger's) and Camel Tours

My biggest problem is when I go up there for a session I generally see one other kiter, 20/30 4wd's(5-10 of which have booze dripping out of the panels & passengers everywhere but in the vehicle), 4 or 5 Dirt bikes(in the native land area), a Quad or 2(also in the native land area) and a bunch of kid's Sand Boarding(No Prob's).........

Guy's if you are reading this I'm an Ozzy and I'll comply with most of the rules, but seriously your in 4wd's Do you not see what I'm talking about or is it too big an area for too few, we are easy target's because we can be caught in a lull or on pack up(Yes we have posted that three of us were kiting on Friday) and I'm aware of the issue's with last October. Is it as simple as going further south or starting around Lavis Lane instead? I don't want to stop kiting up there, it is too beautiful a place and so perfect for what we do

At the end of the day, if I'm gonna cop a fine or have to pay for a permit then I'd rather not see 4wd's driving up and down the dunes with beer bottles gettting thrown out and people hanging off of everywhere(I'm keeping to myself, they are trying to kill thier friend's) as it was put to us on Friday "Consider it the Pacific Highway" "NSW Road rules apply". If they apply then they should apply to everyone(Drink Driving Anyone)!

My 2 cents(hang on they got rid of that)

David W Schuppe

[Oooo]

well been away a bit and come in to see this and OMFG!! looked at the whys and where fores and to say the mind boggels is like -yeah !! good on you TROY !! for bringing this up and trying to help ,well i say trying but you have been doing !! we do need to classifie because we here in REDCLIFFE have already seen a ban on a local park here because of shit happening ,so do not want to see it happen else where and as joel has suggeseted

"wheeled recreational device." this I think is the way to go because if we go down any other road we may not be able to get a use classifaction and therefore be unable to buggy on these awesome places and as has happened already in other places it WILL !! happen austraila wide !! and then we will all be in the poo and not just buggys ,boards,blades and poss all kiting and that would be the biggest tradgey of all so like we doing now cool heads and the right thinking will see us through

keep going troy you have my backing and voice to help mate

[Goz]

You can sum up the whole situation like this: "We want to have you kiting, but there's no classification under which we can give you consent to kite."

That's the whole crux of it. From what I understand is that on Crown land no unclassified activity can take place. So national parks etc, whatever activities take place (camping, hiking etc) must all be classified. If it's unclassified it can not take place on Crown land. So the rangers can't continue to turn a blind eye.

In my opinion what we want is to be classified as a "wheeled recreational device."

I think now that we have got to the crux of the problem we really need to decide on what is the best classification for Kite Buggying and Landboarding is going to be for us as a sport/recreation and as a community.

After spending most of the evening pouring over various government sites from around Australia I think the "wheeled recreational device" classification is what best describes kite buggying and landboarding. Also the fact that it is a nationally described classification (Australian Transport Council - Australian Road Rules) it will enable the whole process to move forward so we can gain consent or permits to be able to hold future events not only at Stockton but in other locations around Australia.

Once we decide on what classification we should be aiming for I think it's a matter of getting an offical ruling from the Australian Transport Council or the relevant orginisation as to what we would be offically classified as, that should then rectify the problem of being unclassified and we can then move on from there.

Australian Road Rules_February_2009_final.pdf

[nigel]

It took me a few seconds to comprehend the whole "unclassified = unlawful" scenario, which I thing is bullshit legislation.

In my opinion what we want is to be classified as a "wheeled recreational device."

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/personal_transport/light_vehicles_pdfs/land_yachts_01.pdf

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/australian_road_rules/intro_main/Dictonary.PDF

I believe (and I say I believe because I haven't seen it in writing yet) that the AKFA had buggies in SA classed as wheeled toys / wheeled recreational devices.

Here's some documentation from the RTA, where there is classification for Wheeled Recreational Devices. This is what we should be aiming to be classified as because we are not land yachts or anything of that nature, nor are we transport vessles or devices. Under the RTA if we are classified as a recreational wheeled device a lot of the laws governing registered and non registered vehicles do not apply to us. We can then assume classification under a recreational activity and not require permits, beyond that we can then apply for consent for events such as MayDay.

Here's some info from the RTA: http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Reports/ARR_February_2009_final.pdf

The section to read (i've just taken a screenshot of the contents to look for):

Un-classified?????

Are the rangers smoking something???

They might need to have a look at the RTA themselves.

The RTA has a section for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!(they have very good legal people and you will be classified, Mr DECC don't have a leg to stand on if he thinks he's on taking on the RTA!!)

There is a default section (wheeled recreational devices I think) where if it doesn't fit in any other section, then it goes in there.

Yes the AKFA do have in writing that they are wheeled toys/ wheeled recreational devices.

Next step is to get us buggies, mountain boards and other wheeled kite powered devices classed the same as the SA boys but on a national level!!!!

No more problems then!!!

Who do we need to see about getting this done???

Or does each state need to be done seperately, due to our road laws being different in each state?

My problem with this permit BS, is if new a kiter turns up and wants to use his buggy on a nice day, he has to get a permit (ok I'll get one), who's open to purchase one on a public holiday at 8am, or 6pm durring day light savings???

Any permits must be obtainable to a person walking onto the beach, automated machines will be required, not from council chambers 20 km away, nor days in advance.

[rowdyblue]

Hey Troy

Good on ya mate for actively pursuing this and getting it running. With the timing of this 10 year plan, it sounds like we've actually got a really good opportunity right now to get this sorted out.

In my opinion what we want is to be classified as a "wheeled recreational device."

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but surely on this classification issue there could only be one opinion possible. How could we be classified any other way? We've got devices with wheels that we use purely for recreational purposes. Entirely inside that definition, never outside of that definition.

For organised events, I believe there should absolutely be permits, but I've got issues with the individual permit thing. Once you start writing rules and regulations, you get caught between the SPIRIT of the law verses the LETTER of the law. If you follow the NRL and get frustrated with what the video refs do you'll probably understand what I mean.

Once a law is written down, it becomes possible to be prosecuted for doing something that doesn't hurt or affect anyone or anything, but because you're doing something outside the letter of the law - it becomes illegal! You would hope common sense would prevail, but that doesn't always happen (the cynic may say that lawyers have swapped their common sense for their law degree - don't use common sense, just look for loopholes in the law. Past experience leads me to agree with the cynic). Luckily for us, so far common sense has prevailed in our dealings with the rangers at Stockton at past events. Although I do remember being confused listening to one conversation last October when we were being told that we couldn't go onto the dunes due to environmental reasons. When we asked about the trail bike that was racing up the very same dunes during that very same conversation, we were told he was OK because he was registered..... Common sense did eventually prevail - but not everyone's got it. Incidentally, I remember thinking at the time that I thought it was a motocross bike (which aren't registerable) - but, anyway....

I'm also wondering if static flying needs a permit (little single line kite OK? Blade IV 4.9m OK?). If that doesn't need a permit, what happens if you flew a kite while standing on, say, a sandboard? Does a sandboard need a permit? what if the kite caused you and the sandboard to move?

What if you where static flying and you sat down in your extra wide pram (because the twins where playing in the sand near where the drunken 4x4 drivers where hooning about - that's ok because the 4x4 driven by the drunk has a permit) What if the kite caused the extra wide pram to move - does the pram need a permit?

What if that wheelchair kiter turned up - does he need a permit for his wheelchair?

Hmmm... well if the sandboard, pram and wheelchair don't need permits, maybe it's the kites that need a permit... now... there's a five year old running down the beach with a little kite trying to keep it up in the air - better go and fine her parents because SHE'S GOT NO PERMIT FOR THAT!

It must be late - now I want to become a lawyer so I can see who's breaking rules and BUST them.

Seriously, the individual permit thing does open a pandora's box - and we'll be left with simply hoping that common sense prevails in policing the laws, and common sense is really what we're using when we go flying now anyway.

I do agree with permits for organised meets, because obviously that's when there's a significant number of kites and buggys around.

that's my 5 cents worth - all I was going to say was keep up the good work guys, you've got my support in sorting this out.

Grant

PS

I don't mean to incinuate that all the 4x4 drivers there are drunk hoons, I know most aren't, but I have seen friggin' dangerous stuff on that beach by permit carrying inbreds.

[ctrlaltkite]

This is an extremely interesting thread! Thank guys for all the input and varying opinions.

Down here in Tassie I can forsee some beaches and parks becoming no go zones for kite sports.

Especially an area i love to fly in, buggy in go camping in ie. the Bay of Fires, is being mooted as Tassies next National Park !

Whilst I'd love the world to just leave it alone and let us Tasmanians enjoy this 'best kept of secrets' Lonely Planet came in and named it like a numberone place to visit so now the Tas Govt want a nat park and the aboriginal community want it handed back to them. If it becomes a Nat Park the govt will want its pound of flesh just for ordinary Tasmanians to visit the place yet alone enjoy any activity there. And while I understand the aboriginal communities cultural ties to the area i am very sceptical of their motivation in seeking control over the land in question at this time.

So i read this thead with great interest and hope and encourage the group to persue a legal classification of our loved past-time. Yes classification of the activity may make it easier for authorities to blanket ban what they dont fully understand but the opposite is also true in that it will make it easier to gain consents to use areas along with gaining some kind of recognition from land managers.

Cheers,

Dave

[JKS]

Ok ... I'm gunna toss another thought in the pot ....

I believe the definition "Wheeled Recreational Device" is spot on, until you read the definition

http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/australian_road_rules/intro_main/Dictonary.PDF

".... propelled by human power or gravity" This is clearly not quite the case and I think persuing a definition the is only 'part' right may be a waste of time, or worse yet it may have a negative effect.

I don't know weather these existing definitions can be expanded :confused:

I spent a lot of time last night looking for anything similar on the international front and what I found was "In general" a kite buggy is classified as a Parakat, but I could find no classifications for anything else (Landboards , Sandboards etc). The next frustration was that I couldn't find anything in the way of legislation or rulings anywhere. Dozens of race rules, race lisences, ettiquite etc etc ...

Marty

[BobM]

Is the Department of Environment and Climate Change a Federal or a State government Department?

The reason that I ask is that I work in a building where a couple of floors are taken up by the Federal Department.

BobM