FlySurfer Bridle lengths

[SoutherlyBuster]

Repair time for my FlySurfer kites. The pulley lines have busted on one kite, pulley lines on others are on their way out and one none pulley bridle busted needing replacement. FlySurfer offer a line service but are expensive, so time to consider alternatives to make my own. FlySurfer does publish the line plans giving both the lengths of the finished product and the length before the loops have been made. So off I go and measure some of the bridles and they are quite different to the published data, sure I understand the lines shrink over the years as dirt gets in, but did not expect them to be so different. For instance the st1 bridle which directly attaches to the canopy at the wing tip, one attachment point foreward from the trailing edge: as measured 55cm, FlySurfer published 60 cm, that is 5cm shrinkage or 8% shrinkage. Spot checked other bridle lines, say the red ones getting similar figures. It is almost as if the dimensions are for a differnent kite. Any one else measured their FlySurfer bridles and compared to published data from FlySurfer?

I know if any one bridle is to be replaced they must be done in pairs of left hand side plus right hand side.

regards,

Norman

[Chook]

Norm I had the same trouble with my 10meter Flysurfer Speed 2 and 21 meter Silver Arrow I repaired/tuned in Yeppoon.

Both kites were posted to Yeppoon by their previous owners for me and came with their original manuals. I downloaded the bridle plans printed them out and bought them with me.

The stated bridle line lengths were up to 100mm out for the big "Silver Arrow" kite. It was in pristine condition with no wear on the speed system and couldn't understand the big errors I was getting.

@andy666 helped me equalize the speed system and I tuned the bar/line lengths to the manual/Chart. The kite wouldn't launch very easily at all and flew pretty ordinarily .....I returned the power line lengths back to where they were (125mm longer) when I received the kite and off it went perfectly. The bridle line lengths are enormous on this kite so I suppose 125mm on the powers isn't unusual. Just had me baffled and very frustrated on the beach till readjusted.

The Speed 2 10m2, on inspection after unpacking it had 3 of it's tip bridles stretched and the stainless ring was larksheaded into a fixed position by it's own bridle line and couldn't slide through the ring. "It wouldn't turn the previous owner stated". No bloody wonder!!!!!  The chart measurements for this kite were 30mm to 50mm (bridles towards the centre of the kite) different. So I just matched the tip lines to the other side of the kite. It then flew a treat. At $90.00, kite, bag, lines and bar, it turned out to be a great investment.   

[SoutherlyBuster]

Thanks @Chook. I posted the same question back to FlySurfer, lets see what happens. Balancing LHS to RHS is easy enough, but if the lengths from fore lines to aft lines is not in the right proportion, ie replacing only some of them with bad inputs, buggered if I know how to easily fix that. Thanks any way, at least I was not imaginging things  

 

[Kamikuza]

Only 8%? Not that bad

Pulley lines = Spare Parts Lines? I had them break on my 15m in NZ two trips back, and made spares from 2-3mm Amsteel bought at the yacht shop. I made them too short; that is, the same length as the unbroken one  Amsteel has shrunk less than the originals did but when I remake them I'll add 5% to the end though to account for shrinkage. 

The 15m bridles are way out of shape anyway 

Easiest fix would be make LCL to add the length, but good luck getting bulk Liros line. At all. I'm pondering this issue at the moment...

 

[SoutherlyBuster]

13 hours ago, Kamikuza said:

Only 8%? Not that bad

Pulley lines = Spare Parts Lines? I had them break on my 15m in NZ two trips back, and made spares from 2-3mm Amsteel bought at the yacht shop. I made them too short; that is, the same length as the unbroken one  Amsteel has shrunk less than the originals did but when I remake them I'll add 5% to the end though to account for shrinkage. 

The 15m bridles are way out of shape anyway 

Easiest fix would be make LCL to add the length, but good luck getting bulk Liros line. At all. I'm pondering this issue at the moment...

 

Thanks @Kamikuza, so which was it 2 or 3mm for the pulley lines = sparepart lines. Yes pulley lines are officially called "sparepart line" on the line plans. Amsteel lasting ok?. What does LCL stand for? Joel at FixMyKite also has the 2mm bridle lines, just in the progress to get the specs on those lines.

[andy666]

LCL= little connection line. The "weak link" between the bridle and canopy.

Yes, the bridle lines do shrink a bit. The mixer test helps compensate for this to a degree, but not entirely.

There used to be info on foilzone (before it shut down) about re-stretching bridles. From memory, you need a pulley, rope, S hook, and a 5kg weight.

attach the pulley to rafter. Run rope from 5kg weight, up through pulley and attach S hook to end of rope. Then hook each pair of bridle sections (LH and RH) onto hook. Pull on each bridle alternatively to lift the weight and stretch the bridle. Check for equal length. If unequal, you can gentle "bounce" the weight for extra stretch.

Although the bridle lines can lift more then weight, I think that guys worked out that 5kg was enough to stretch the bridles, without going too close to the breaking load.

[SoutherlyBuster]

I could just trial the Amsteel or Joel's FixMyKite bridles for the pulley lines, doing all testing above water, so if it goes pop no harm done to me. There is a challenge getting out on the water when day time temps are 8 degrees and the snow fields are tempting us to go snowboarding! 

[Kamikuza]

Can't remember. The 12-braid, thinnest I think. I'm actually using Cabrinha pulleys too, and everything is lasting well--better than the FS but they aren't as free-wheeling as the FS ones. Brummell splices for the loops, no stitching.

There's info on kiteforum.com about stretching too--same technique as used by paragliders, so if you can't find it there. . . . Something I've yet to get around to but will try . . . eventually. Otherwise, as Andy says  although people were using up to 35kg . . . 5kg is the load you put the mixer under when you do the test. The goal with stretching is to get the sides equal, and the mixer to take out front to rear differences. Measuring individual lines will drive you mad but IIRC there's little to be gained.

I had the pulley lines bust mid jump. Wasn't as bad as the front pigtail breaking while standing on the beach

[SoutherlyBuster]

Just got a reply from FlySurfer, they are willing to sell me the bridles lines uncut unsewn. Will be interesting to see what price they come up with. I aksed them about the stretching as well and said, well since you are making your own, make them a bit shorter in keeping with the rest of the kite, but do several spot checks of line lengths.

[Kamikuza]

Shipping may kill it. I've asked before too

IMO you're better off replacing the LCLs -- much less work!

[SoutherlyBuster]

Replacing the LCL's?? Why, there is no problem there for me. The main pulley line busted, then I suspect this put extra strain on a bridle line further towards the canapy and it started to go ping, though mind you might have been bad luck with a nasty muscle shell on the beach cutting the bridle. Shipping, ya, 17 EU, but still if you get enough it might pay off.

[andy666]

Honestly norm, if you are just buying a length of line to make the pulley line yourself, you are better off just buying some 3mm bridle line from FixMyKite and save a some $$

The smaller sleeved sections of bridle can be made with 2mm bridle line and the thin white bridles can be made using 150lb or 200lb stunt kite line

[Kamikuza]

Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about unequal bridle lines and stretching. Splicing new bridle lines would be time consuming.

17 Euro isn't bad! How much are you getting?

Liros line is a much tighter weave -- you get significantly higher breaking strain for the same thickness.

There's a boating supply store down the crescent that Ground Swell is on the corner of, on the LHS tucked down the back. They sell Amsteel by the meter, just take in the SPL and a pulley and match the thickness.

BTW have you seen gunnar's video on how to swap the pulleys?

[SoutherlyBuster]

I have not seen Gunars video on swapping pulleys. Thanks for the tip @Kamikuza, might just be a quicker option than ordering from Oz, will see what else they have.

Found them

http://boat.net.nz

Bingo. Will pay them a visit tomorrow and what they don't have I will order from Joel's fix my kite

 

[Kamikuza]

Sorry, should have posted a Google maps link lazy me

I see "kite line" on their webpage (but that'll be too fine for SPL) but no Dyneema/Amsteel like I saw when I was in there . . . ?

2.8mm must have been what I used: http://marinebox.shop-pro.jp/?pid=53845612 My "local" yachting shop--4 hour round trip and $80 highway tolls  they do do COD though . . .

[SoutherlyBuster]

Got some 260 kg 2mm spectra / dyneema for the pulleys and 4mm 900 kg for the depower, will see how it goes. No worries with the google maps was easy enough to find from your instructions.

[SoutherlyBuster]

Speed III 12m^2 all fixed up qnd tested with a static fly  . Flies great, no bridle lines went ping, steering all the way it should be. Left hand side of kite took all afternoon to sort out, hmm where does this knot go, hey that knot is not documented in the line plan, oh bugger better record all the connections if I dissasemble the bridles, oy Pixel (my cat) get out of there, lunch break, dinner break, ok so the list goes on. So once I figured out what needs to be dissasembled to replace the worn bridles, the right hand side repairs went through quickly in 45 minutes. Those little connectors (LC) came in really handy, so only had to dissconnect the bridles from there to the one needing replacement -- clever. Hint, if you are replacing say the B lines, grab all the A lines and hang them from somewhere, like a tripod to keep them out of the way. Also bunch the loose bridles with a rubber band so they do not tangle as all the larks head knots are threaded through, unless you take pleasure in untangling bird's nests!

So now I have scketch of where all the bridles and knots go. Savings = x10 ! By the way all the sewing of the bridles was done by hand since I do not have a foot or sewing machine base plate with a groove to keep the bridle aligned.

[Kamikuza]

Brummell splice would have been quicker

[SoutherlyBuster]

Brummel splice ey, but all the bridles have an outer sleave surounding an inner core. Have done splices before but when there was only an outer sleave and no inner core.

[Kamikuza]

Eh? Can't remember the actual names, but you'll have sheathed lines from the mixer then the splits should be "plain" Liros . . . which bits did you replace? The red and green lines, huh? Hand sewing those would suck you can splice them apparently but I've never been bothered figuring it out.

 

I thought you were doing the white Liros DC100 (?) lines. . . .

[SoutherlyBuster]

There are sheathed lines at the pulleys (yellow lines) and for the red and green lines further up from the mixer. Liros is actually a company in Germany making lines for the paragliding industry. The white lines that attach to the LC's are non sheathed -- did not have to replace them. Only replaced the first pulley line and one of the red/green lines. Sewing the loops would go quick if the sewing machine was properly equiped. Similarily with the splices, a good splicing tool would do wonders, they call them a fid, have not bought one yet.

[andy666]

@SoutherlyBuster for splicing lines, like the small white ones on the flysurfer, I use a doll needle from spotlight. The eye is large engough to get the line through and it's easy to feed up the centre of the line.

just dull the point with a file so that doesn't catch any of the braided.

[SoutherlyBuster]

Received an email from FlySurfer and they are willing to sell their bridles off the spool, minimum order 1m and their prices are very competitive. Significant cost savings if you make your own bridles / depowers off the spool versus ready made.

[Kamikuza]

The white or green/red line? How about LCL material?