Flow Hive

[jhn.holgate]

So these two blokes designed a bee hive that you could sneak up behind, turn a tap and drain the honey out into a jar or bucket without disturbing the bees. Great idea. They've been testing it for a few years and on the 22nd of Feb launched it on indiegogo for some crowd funding and presales hoping to raise $70,000. Obviously, a lot of people are very interested in this because in 48 hours they've raised 2.3 MILLION dollars.

[Clive]

Whilst it works, one would still need a good understanding of bee behavior and reproduction to make it work properly, the 2 stack hive is a little simplistic, and in the form shown on the video, they would most likely starve in winter. If you don't have enough brood space in spring potentially they would swarm.

Victorian regulations require you to do reasonable hive inspections for problems such as American foulbrood, plus there would be a temptation to just tap off the honey without considering the needs of the bees.

Still a clever invention though, but given we keep bees here at home, I'm content to let the bees do their thing and just take off enough for us, and not try to make a profit from it. part of the fun of the whole beekeeping thing is checking out the hive, managing it, and seeing what's going on.

Happy to explain stuff if people want to know.

[jhn.holgate]

A couple of my wife's friends have been beekeepers so I've been made aware that there is a lot more involved than what appears on the (arguably over simplified) video. Might have to pick your brain over a hot chocolate at Sandy

I take it that the honey is the bee's winter food stash? And it looks like you can tap the individual frames when appropriate, so you could always see to leave them a fair share. They're saying that they can get 3kg of honey per frame (20kg per box) and that it's usually full in under a month during the warmer months - does that sound right? That's a heck of a lot of honey!

I can't believe how many people have jumped on board for this - they've had another $60,000 in sales and donations since I put the first post up. I think they'll break through the 3 million mark.

[ssayre]

That's a pretty incredible idea. Bee keeping seems to be a popular hobby lately. I'm in the roofing business and people are starting to keep bee hives downtown near old buildings. We have had more trouble lately, running into huge hives in small attic spaces below old flat roofs on commercial buildings that we are tearing off. I assume they maybe from defunct bee keeper hives from nearby.

[Clive]

A couple of my wife's friends have been beekeepers so I've been made aware that there is a lot more involved than what appears on the (arguably over simplified) video. Might have to pick your brain over a hot chocolate at Sandy

There is a lot more involved, will give you a few pointers here as wind forecast for sandy only looks good for Sunday.... The only day I can't go

Essentially what bees are trying to do is build up their numbers enough to swarm, this is their method of reproduction in the sense, yes the queen produces bees, but to increase beyond that you need another queen, generally 2 queens will fight to the death, so one leaves with half the troops, leaving another of several behind to hatch and battle for supremacy and take over the remainder of the hive, ( this also is fairly simplified) generally this takes place around October here in Australia in spring, a number of factors influence this, food, density hive space etc.

I take it that the honey is the bee's winter food stash?

In part, the queen apart from her initial mating generally never leaves the hive, so it's food for her, worker bees live for Approx 6-8 weeks the first half of which don't leave the hive apart from to defecate, they have duties in the hive to perform so they use the honey too, then there is the brood, they are laid as eggs in the comb, fed until large enough then capped off to pupate into bees.

Stored honey is for food over winter and importantly for the bees, it gives them a chance to build up numbers in early spring ready for swarming, so when the flowers appear there is plenty of food for them to begin a new hive.

As a beekeeper you want to stop them from swarming as you've worked for them and to lose half of your workforce is a loss. Lots of techniques can be used splitting the hive, hive manipulation to create more space and the sense for the bees they're not ready... Too much to cover here....

And it looks like you can tap the individual frames when appropriate, so you could always see to leave them a fair share

Yes and yes you could do that, but humans tend to be a little greedy don't we.

They're saying that they can get 3kg of honey per frame (20kg per box) and that it's usually full in under a month during the warmer months - does that sound right? That's a heck of a lot of honey!

It is possible BUT you need a good nectar flow to get this, ie lots of flowers plus also lots of bees, nectar flow can be sporadic depending on what is flowering, hence why professional beekeepers move their bees around to get the most nectar, generally hobbyists don't do quite so much of that unless they've got quite a few hives.

I can't believe how many people have jumped on board for this - they've had another $60,000 in sales and donations since I put the first post up. I think they'll break through the 3 million mark

Harvesting honey and looking after bees can be time consuming, and messy, just tapping off a bit would certainly work for some.

There has been a lot of interest in beekeeping as it has been in the headlines bees are being wiped out worldwide, and no bees= no food, as they do 75% of pollination of food crops. Bees are dying as they are under stress, insecticides which are very effective don't discriminate and kill everything, one nasty one in particular are the neonicinotoid variety sprayed onto seeds and remain in the plant as it grows, then there's the varroa parasite which is in every continent except right here in Australia. Then there's mono cropping which is planting say, miles and miles of corn or similar, bees like humans need a varied diet.

Overseas to be a beekeeper can require a lot of effort just to keep them alive let alone harvest honey, on a personal view, I think the bees are pollinators, honey is a bonus, but should be taken sparingly to ensure their survival. What some people do is pinch all the honey then feed them sugar water, there are stories that this is extensively done in some places.... Not so much here.... But I'm told that in America for honey to be labeled as pure it only needs about 50% honey, the rest can be from sugar water fed to the bees. I might advise not to buy honey from china or similar as honey isn't necessarily honey so to speak, it can also be mixed with corn syrup.... This I think has happened here, honey flavored corn syrup....yuk.

As far as the new invention goes, you would have to keep the queen out of that box so she can't lay in it, via what's called a queen excluder ( don't like them, have tried them but removed them) otherwise she will lay in the cells and when you shift them all the pupae will be crushed and you have dead and decaying material mixed in

Will post a couple of pics so you know what things look like insie a hive

In the beeping world, there are beekeepers and bee-havers, the latter want them but to do as little as possible.

[Clive]

That's a pretty incredible idea. Bee keeping seems to be a popular hobby lately. I'm in the roofing business and people are starting to keep bee hives downtown near old buildings. We have had more trouble lately, running into huge hives in small attic spaces below old flat roofs on commercial buildings that we are tearing off. I assume they maybe from defunct bee keeper hives from nearby.

The bees reproduction is to swarm, the less they are managed the more they will tend to swarm, again leaving behind bes to continue in the old hive, bees will move into any suitable cavity that has what they need, ( not to hot, not wet etc) worse still for you, they leave pheromones behind, so if you remove them, later on other bees will go... Hey this looks alike a good spot someone's been here before.

But it's most unlikely to be a defunct hive, it's just an old one building up again to do the same thing ..... Again and again. This is one reason why good management practices are important, your neighbors don't want your bees, other than to buzz around their flowers.

[Clive]

Here's one of my hives

Here's what it looks like inside a box

Frame

[Clive]

Close up of a frame, eggs down in the open cells, the white larvae coiled in the cell, once capped off they're pupating. Up to the top are honey stores.

Or you could just have a honey frame......This is what you want in the new invention.

You would need to ensure only honey gets into the new invention, or it's going to be a mess!

[ssayre]

Honey bees are protected in my area so if we run across a hive then bee people come and relocate them.

Cool stuff by the way, thanks for the pictures and explanation.

[Clive]

Aha you're in USA, hence why they're protected, at least in your area. We have it much easier here, less pests and poisons.

Back to the FAKE HONEY it's worth doing a google search on "FAKE HONEY" to see how things are done regarding this..... Here's an example https://beeuorganics.wordpress.com/2013 ... orn-syrup/

Honey ain't always honey

http://www.choice.com.au/media-and-news ... 51214.aspx

[ssayre]

I haven't looked at the links yet, but I've been getting my honey from a bee keeper across the street from my work. I've been over at his place and he feeds the bees sugar water. How much would you sell me a jar of your Australian honey? I have a feeling I haven't had good honey yet. And yes I'm smack dab in the middle of the US

[Clive]

I don't know the exact chemical constituent of nectar, but they must all be different as each honey from different plants has a unique taste, and sometimes as in the case of Manuka honey unique antibacterial properties, although I personally don't like the taste of Manuka honey.

Good quality honey should ONLY come from natural sources and I don't imply that sugar being a natural product is acceptable. there are times where beekeepers feed sugar water to help the bees survive, but ideally this is not for human consumption.

Bees ideally should get a variety of nectars, just like people need a varied diet to get all the daily nutritional requirements.

Unfortunately we can all be fooled into thinking its pure true honey when It's not, the only true way to get good honey is from a beekeeper you know who just lets nature do its thing.

Foods these days just often are not up to what they used to be, grow your own tomatoes this year and see how they compare to the store bought variety.... No comparison.

Despite the claim by beekeepers in this country, when money is involved, there is always the possibility of "cheating" to increase the yield.

Good luck in finding a local reputable provider.... It's always ..... Caveat emptor ( buyer beware) or like me just make your own, problem solved.

[jhn.holgate]

Many thanks, Clive. Some great info and pics there.

[SoutherlyBuster]

Interesting read Clive. When I used to live in Wollongong NSW, we got our honey from a fellow that did it on the side, delivered in an ice cream container. Was the best honey I ever tasted. Always got a different honey depending on the season, sure liked the variety. Then comes the stuff you get from the supermarkets and it always tastes the same, arggg consistency? Yes, but those terrific flavours of the unblended stuff is lost.

[RobG]

$4M now!

Cheers - Rob

[jhn.holgate]

I think they ended up with 11 Million US in the most successful campaign Indigogo ever launched.  But does it work?  Kim and myself joined the local bee group and have been going to meetings and demo days.  The most recent was the first harvest from a Flow Hive about 10km from where we are.  There was a dozen or so of us there so out of curiosity, we pulled a couple of the Flow Hive frames out to have a look at what was going on.  The window at the back of the super box didn't show any honey in the cells but that's because the bees were starting at the other end of the frame and working back towards the window.  Most of the frames were 80% or thereabouts full with honey.  The frames were put back in and the lid put on top and then the moment of truth - can you really just turn a key and fill a bottle with honey ready to go?  No mess, no fuss?  And the answer was an absolute yes.  You could stand around the back of the hive (we all did) while the honey was draining out into the jar while all the bees went about their business at the front of the hive and were not perturbed by us at all.  (they weren't overly perturbed when we had the frames out and were looking at them either - nice calm bees).  It was a resounding success.  And the honey was equal to, if not the best honey I've ever tasted.  What an incredibly easy way to harvest honey!  Obviously, that's the easy bit, you've still got to do all the other things that beekeepers need to do to keep your hives healthy - and Kim and I are learning a lot - and there's a lot to learn about keeping your girls healthy and looking after the hive.  We've got a Flow Hive and a regular langstroth hive ready to go, now we just need some bees.  Although at this stage of the year, there's actually not a hell of a lot flowering around here at the moment so we may be better off waiting till next season to get going.

A couple of pics from the day....

Just about to flow....

Yes!!

Our group...

 

[Clive]

Interesting that the bees didn't see the honey being removed.

im going to assume you will have to put a queen excluder below the flow hive components, you will still need to check the hives regularly ..... 2 boxes may not be enough. The bees need room for brood , plus you need to manage them so they go into winter with plenty of stores, mine are a bit bigger than 2 boxes.

big workforce = lots of honey    Provided you have sufficient nectar of course.

 

[jhn.holgate]

1 hour ago, Clive said:

Interesting that the bees didn't see the honey being removed.

im going to assume you will have to put a queen excluder below the flow hive components, you will still need to check the hives regularly ...

I'm told the girls quickly work out that the honey's gone and start uncapping and repairing/re filling almost straight away.   And yes to the queen excluder between the brood box and honey super.  Brood in the flow frames would be messy.  We went to a hive opening the day before - I think it was an 8 frame langstroth brood box with a couple of half size supers (ideals ??) on top but no queen excluder - and the supers had almost completely filled with honey in something like 4 weeks.  Amazing how heavy those little frames are when full.  It was also amazing to see the white comb the bees had built on the foundations and we also got to see some bees hatching out of their cells.  Fascinating stuff. 

[Mez]

What a truly amazing read. Thank you all for contributing your knowledge - I have learnt a lot. Thank you!  

[jhn.holgate]

The nectar flow is on in earnest at the moment.  A couple of the frames are filled all the way to the ends and the girls have nearly finished capping the middle frames.  We've now got two boxes under the super.  Due to the cold and wet winter and spring, the colony was looking pretty average with not much happening but now it's amazing how much activity is going on.  I think we'll be able to harvest our first honey in another week or two - once the middle frames are fully capped and they start to look like they need a bit more room we'll crack the middle frames open and get our first jars.  The bees seem a lot quieter now too - the first times we checked the hives they really got annoyed and we copped a few stings even with the suits.  We opened up the hive a bit over a week ago and they were much quieter with only one or two bees pissed at us. 

It's great being able to open the windows in the Flow Super and check out the progress each day but we still need to take a frame or two out occasionally and make sure the whole thing is capped and ready to go.

[igeighty]

now grab an in-hive mounted camera, and a 2 shot per day time lapse

Thats great John. So in under a season you they are fully up and running. the first golden crumpet with honey will be spectacular.

We had a wild hive living in the un-occupied house that used to be next door. each november and december their numbers seem to increase rapidly.

In the picture below these where the bees around the entrance, the bulk of the occupied 2.5m^2 of wall cavity

 

 

[Clive]

Good to hear you're doing well John 

Our bees have been very slow with the wet and cold weather, nothing to harvest at all yet, in fact compared to last year it's a dud so far.

be interesting to see how the flow hive stands up over time, I haven't heard any really negative reports from those that have used them yet.

as far as bees being aggressive, our experience so far is that when they have plenty of food they're more docile, when times are tough so are they. Interestingly in winter they are reputed to kick the males out, but our experience is if there is an abundance of honey stored they keep them around ( perhaps not a full compliment but enough to do the job) 

 

[jhn.holgate]

7 hours ago, Clive said:

in winter they are reputed to kick the males out, but our experience is if there is an abundance of honey stored they keep them around

Yes, we've noticed quite a few Drones in among the girls.  When we pulled the hive apart the other week I lifted the Flow super off the top -won't be doing that again, bloody thing weighs about 20kg and I imagine there's a few more kg's in it now.  Next time I'll take half the frames out before I try and move it.  I'll get some photos.

[jhn.holgate]

A few shots of the hive....

Side window opens to show bees filling the outside frame with honey (or is it nectar at this stage?)...

Spot the Drone in the middle...

The rear opens up so you can see the ends of the frames...

Bees have nearly completely filled the right side of the frame and you can see the capping.  Once the frame is filled and capped we can harvest our first batch.  Each frame has 2.5 - 3kg of honey.  I believe it's nectar until it's capped and the moisture is out of it, then it's officially honey ??  Generally, what we've been told is once the frame is 80% capped, you can harvest it for honey.  We'll probably wait till it's fully capped and they're starting to run out of space to put the nectar, then harvest the center frames.  Which will involve pulling out the little circular plug at the bottom of the frame, inserting a tube, sticking the other end in a jar (sealed up so the bees can't get into it) and then putting a key/tool into the top of the frame and turning it to split all the cells.  According to other Flow Hive users, the bees very quickly work out the honey has gone, take the capping off, re-seal the cells and start the filling process again.

When we pulled a frame out a couple weeks ago, the bees were evenly capping the length of the frame from the top down.

[Chook]

That's most impressive John. Gotta love nature in it's purest form.