Born Kite Long Star

[gum-nuts]

Why go for a control system that is so counter intuitive? I understand that Born kites are about developing unique kites and the NPW has a loyal following but...

If your not already a NPW fan I think you would read/watch what has been posted about the LongStar and certainly think twice before going down that route and if you were after a single skin then go for a Peak 2 with already proven performance.

Or wait for the LongStar 2 with maybe a simplified/reduced bridle/line/bar set-up and more intuitive control system that would allow the pilot to start to explore that potential straight out of the bag. At the moment it sounds like you are buying a prototype.

[jhn.holgate]

Why go for a control system that is so counter intuitive? I understand that Born kites are about developing unique kites and the NPW has a loyal following but...

If your not already a NPW fan I think you would read/watch what has been posted about the LongStar and certainly think twice before going down that route and if you were after a single skin then go for a Peak 2 with already proven performance.

Or wait for the LongStar 2 with maybe a simplified/reduced bridle/line/bar set-up and more intuitive control system that would allow the pilot to start to explore that potential straight out of the bag. At the moment it sounds like you are buying a prototype.

The kite's got huge potential, it really has. And when you get it right, it feels bloody awesome.   I'm chomping at the bit to get it down the beach or at least somewhere I can get a bit of speed up and see what it's capable of.  Ok, the pilots are taking a little longer to come to grips with the control mechanism, but it's way too early to dismiss it as a prototype.  

[gum-nuts]

At the moment it sounds like you are buying a prototype.

[BigTone]

Im with john. It has huge potential. I think i approached it the wrong way, to be honest. I assummed that because the ns2's were so quick, simple and easy to fly that the longstars would be as well. Its would be like flying a pl hornet, then a vapor. Both great kites, but wildly different in terms of skills and technique to fly. 

 

[gum-nuts]

I'm going to be interested to see them in action when John comes to lake Lefroy, maybe he will even let me have a go. Plenty of space, just hope the wind comes to the party.

 

[ssayre]

anymore news or sightings on this unusual bird?

[windstruck]

I've had all three LSs burning a hole in the back of my rig for the past week or so.  New kite curse in full effect as I haven't had the combination of wind strength and dry conditions to put these kites up in the sky and have them provide any meaningful traction.  I launched the 7m LS again and again with the camera running yesterday only to have the wind speed drop to near zero within seconds.  Guess what?  LongStars don't fly any better in zero wind than any of my other kites!  Sat like an idiot in my buggy for what must have cumulatively been 30-45 minutes all told waiting for the fabled wind to blow again.

Hey, these sucky conditions did let me get in some fun buggying with my Mother of Dragons, the 12.5m NS3!  

[BigTone]

sadly, havnt had a chance to fly mine again. I have adjusted the bar on mine though to shorten the chicken loop....

[windstruck]

I recently received a complete quiver of Born-Kite LongStars (3, 5, and 7m) along with their 5-line control bar. I was very excited about these as I am so very, very pleased with the performance of Born-Kite NS3s. I am principally a buggy rider residing in the mountains of Utah so all of my riding to date has been on various grass or artificial surface athletic fields.

First things first, the LSs are beautiful and well constructed. They make me think of Batman which I think makes them look really cool. The 5-line control bar is a little crude IMHO, particularly in the chicken loop and donkey stick. Born kites most definitely seem better thought out and executed than Born bars.

Flying the LS kites with the 5-line bar is sort of strange. The kites seem to require near constant nursing to maintain decent flying characteristics. The way the bar is set up you strap the chicken loop into your harness, but 50% of the load remains on the bar and thus your arms. This is because the power lines and fifth center line go around a pulley system attached to the bar and go back out again to attach to a cleat above the bar. So... when you push the bar out part way you effectively let off on the brake lines a bit and I suppose change the kites presentation angle to the wind due to a pulley system up by the kite bridles; push it out more and you further engage the fifth line and scrunch up the kites leading edge, creating an inefficient kite that dumps power. I think the LS has a nicer DP center line system than the NS3s.

Beyond the fact that this pushing and pulling of the control bar while taking load on both the harness and your arms is unique, I've got to say that this isn't unique in a good way, IMHO. With the bar pushed out a little bit (enough to loosen up the back lines but not so much as to scrunch up the nose of the kite) the kite will push forward a bit. This is billed as a means of keeping the kite from stalling or flying backwards. What this means in practice is that you are nursing the kite at all times in order to keep the kite flying optimally. This can certainly be done, and I'm sure would get more intuitive and natural once some sort of muscle memory set in, but the nursing of the bar is distinctly different from flying the NS3s, and IMHO not in a good way. I've got some experience flying DP with Flysurfer Peak-2s but their bar action makes sense to me and doesn't require the sort of constant attention that the LSs seem to require.

At least in my hands the LS does not seem to behave well at the edges of the wind window even with my best attempts at good bar control. With a NS3 I can bring the kite to the extreme edge of the window and sort of park it, then nose it down or up to send it smoothly back in the other direction. With the LS if I keep it flying into the edge of the wind window it will stall and then fly backwards despite attempting to arrest this with finessing the bar. Even if I manage to time it right with bar control and stop the backward flying before it happens I didn't find that I could then reasonably get the kite to respond to turning requests and everything just sort of craps out and the kite goes to the ground if I wasn't very careful. Similarly, bringing the kite up to its Zenith and trying to park it pretty much results in the same behavior, but this time sending the kite vertically downward in a reverse flight. Here, I did usually find it possible to arrest the downward path with bar finessing, but again this is the constant nursing issue. More practice (and a better pilot!) would probably take care of some of this.

Finally, as a buggy engine it does seem to require using two hands on the bar pretty much at all times to coax the bar in and out while steering the kite up and down (sinng for example). Not many tries under my belt, but to date I've not been able to reasonably park an LS while rolling, something that is the hallmark of the charm of the STARS. One of the beautiful things about the STARS is their ability to "park" the kite while buggying and fly it with one hand (or no hands, just nudging the bar now and again with a finger to make micro flight corrections). This is NOT happening with the LS. Yes, I know folks that buggy with kites on handles always need to use both hands, but one of the sweet things about buggying with STARS is not having to do that.

One thing I've not had much of yet is great high wind pushing the kites upward toward their upper limits. I will say that the LSs behaved better when the wind was stronger. Of course that meant that the load on my arms was proportionally higher too....

So.... I'm not too keen on the 5-line bar. In an attempt to get good use out of the kites themselves I tried flying them using my 3-line bar set up I use for my NS3s. Doing this is quite simple as each side's bridle systems are joined with pigtails and the pulley system is part of the 5-line bar setup, so setting these up like a NS3 is as simple as with the STARS. I shot a video of me doing as close to a head-to-head comparison as I could muster, flying the 3.0m LS static on my 3-line bar back to back with my 3.2m NS3. You will see the peculiar flying characteristics I described above. Note please that these behaviors are somewhat exaggerated with the fixed bridle set up, but the kite acts this way with the 5-line set up too. I'd say the pull of these two kites was comparable, both being impressive for their size.

I'm not taking any real pleasure writing this up. I believe strongly in "keeping it real" on a forum like this so I'm doing it. Its hard for me because I have gotten to know Steffen over the past year and really like him and really admire that he started this business up from scratch. That coupled with my absolute LOVE of his NS3s. I'm sure he will continue to innovate with the LongStar concept and maybe even the fabled UltraStar. I keenly look forward to those innovations.

I'd be highly interested in hearing from any other early adopters out there that also have some flying time with the LongStars.

 

Edited October 10, 2015 by windstruck

[gum-nuts]

@windstruck a good honest review, thanks. It will be interesting to hear @jhn.holgate opinion...

You should add it in the reviews section http://www.extremekites.com.au/reviews/

Edited October 10, 2015 by gum-nuts

[jhn.holgate]

. It will be interesting to hear @jhn.holgate opinion...

I have to admit that the Long Stars showed a LOT of potential in my paddocks, once I got used to the depower system and backstall issue (which took a couple hours of flying).  But sadly on Lefroy I could not get them to park in the window either - they required constant attention to the depower which was both pretty tiring and frustrating.  I need to give them a bit more time in the buggy both at home and at Sandy Point before I'm willing to do a proper review on them.   I think I've had better luck than Steve with the behavior of the Long Stars at the edges of the window - but like I said, it took me a couple hours of flying to get it right.  My first hour of flying with them was definitely X rated! - just ask the neighbors.

[windstruck]

I hold out strong hope for these kites.  Most interesting design.  Not surprising at all that @jhn.holgate move up the skill ladder far quicker than I did.  As I mentioned in my write up, these kites seemed to behave better in higher wind conditions.  Part of my edge issues could be attributed to less than optimal winds, but hey, I'm inland and this is what I get most of the time!  Should the wind ever return to my Promised Land I will get these kites out with my buggy for a proper test drive with both the 5-line standard LS bar as well as my custom 3-line bar.  Fingers and toes crossed.

[ssayre]

Hopefully you guys can sort it out. It looked like Steffen was doing okay with it on landboard, but he was at the beach in good wind and facing the kite standing up which would make holding half the power and nursing the kite a little more tolerable. Buggy doesn't afford one to relax with such conditions. 

Edited October 10, 2015 by ssayre

[windstruck]

Maybe it's my age, but I don't like to take a twisting load to the side for extended periods of time when sitting in my buggy. You can see in a lot of my videos when flying NS3s that I like to fly with one hand and hold the side rail with my opposite side hand. Sort of evens out the forces and doesn't tweak my back. I could see how standing and facing the kite would be more comfortable, but twisted to the side...not so comfortable. 

I know, I'll get one of those cool "crabs" built. Should only cost a couple of grand. That way I can face the kite and stop whining about the twisting forces of a traditional buggy seating arrangement. 

Edited October 10, 2015 by windstruck

[jhn.holgate]

 

I know, I'll get one of those cool "crabs" built. Should only cost a couple of grand. That way I can face the kite and stop whining about the twisting forces of a traditional buggy seating arrangement. 

I've always wanted a crab buggy!!

I agree with Steve about the bar - I really want to fly with all the load on my harness, not part of the load.  I also think it's over complex with the pulley system.  And while the Long Star has not proved itself to me in the buggy yet - and I'm really, really hoping it will because lets face it, you're not really gonna buy one of these just to static fly.  I feel the need to give the Long Star some good press.   So here's a vid of a really nice static session with the Long Star at Fowlers Bay.  And it did static fly really nicely.  There was one or two less than perfect landings that didn't make the edit, but I haven't deliberately edited out any bad kite behavior.   I even managed to hold the Long Star at the edge of the window without it backstalling.  I haven't found any difficulty turning at the edge of the window but I do tend to take it high in the window and then down-turn it which seems to keep it pretty well powered.  And like I said earlier, my first flights with the Long Star were nothing like this by a long shot, but this was a really nice session....

 

 

 

[windstruck]

@jhn.holgate - BEAUTIFUL.  I reconfirmed two things by watching this video and learned one new thing.  In terms of reconfirmation, I once again fully accepted that you are a FAR BETTER PILOT than me!    Great to see you in action my Down-Under friend.  Second, clean wind in a wide open space leads to far nicer and more predictable kite performance than janky mountain wind.  I want to reiterate that my testing to date has been in CRAPPY wind.  The new learning:  I've got to start doing more downturns!  I seem to have an aversion to twisting my lines and leaving them twisted, making me do mostly up turns.  Seeing your beautiful downturns makes we dedicated to really putting them into my repertoire.

Winds forecast today looks more promising than in recent days and weeks.  I hope to get out for a buggy session this afternoon.  If conditions are right I'll try some more buggying with the LSs (likely the 7m) hooked up to my custom 3-line bar.  I'll try it without the lower bridle pigtails tied in beyond how they are brought into the main power line pigtail in the stock configuration.  Fingers and toes crossed!

[lasrocas]

sorry to hear about the issues with the LS they look so good and that vid flying static shows the potential of these wings.

The LS looks very much like a variation on the npw high aspect like below

and the flying characteristics described seem very simular.

I flew this one on handles with no Z bridle.

first few hours were a nightmare,but slowly it came together,although the edge of the window was always a problem.

Flying in clean wind was epic and when fully powered or slightly overpowered the power was immense

but at 10mtr overpowered did not last long.The above wing was made by BigE who has some ( ) experience 

with single skin wings.Again flying static as with the LS was a dream but never got to grips with it in the buggy

i am sure steffan will get all these issues sorted ,from what i read he has a dedicated customer base and good

relations with his clients.

craig

[Clive]

Teething issues I guess, I think the peak 1 was improved on by the peak 2 

It may need the bridles tweaking, hopefully something simple to improve it.

whilst the first generation of a new design might show potential it just about always has a few bugs sorted in gen2 , that's just where you find yourself. 

On a personal level I think having a harness and then having to support 1/2 or so of the force on you arms, just isn't what I'd find usefull. Single skin kites just haven't got to the point I find attractive whilst they excell in low wind, unless I lived near a beach I couldn't justify a 4 1/2 hr return trip to play in 5 knots.

 

[ssayre]

first gen peaks are great and don't  have any performance issues that I'm aware of.  Haven't flown second gen peaks but there are people complaining of tip tuck issues on some of them. Seems to be hit and miss as most seem very satisfied. I have never heard any complaints on p1 outside of bar not having swivel or trim strap. I really like my peak if you can't tell and would buy a p2 12 meter when I can. Of course all my flying is gusty inland so that's what drives my purchases.  There really isn't any similarities in nasa star/long star versus peak other than being single skin. 

Edited October 10, 2015 by ssayre

[windstruck]

THIS JUST IN:  flew all three LongStars today in FB 3-line configuration during much higher winds in the buggy.  Much better session than last time.  Not as good as NS3s but much better than anticipated.  Footage forthcoming when I can get on my home computer where I do my GoPro editing.  Where are my daughter's priorities?

[windstruck]

LongStar Second Look!


Well STAR fans, the wind picked up considerably this afternoon and I got all three LongStars up in the air for some lively buggy riding on an artificial surface athletic field near my house. Winds were classically variable, being dead still one minute, only to be gusting 20+ the next. I'd say baseline wind when it was blowing was 10-12 mph.

I used my custom 3-line NS3 bar with the kites only attached via their upper power bridle lines. The LongStars have a Z-Bridle setup and this time I did not tie in the free dangling lower Z line. Maybe a combination of the stronger wind and these lower lines being free, but the kites flew much better today than during my low wind static session that was the subject of my first video.

Bottom line, the LongStars were much improved, but still not up to the smoothness of the NS3s. I could sort of "Park" the LongStars, but not like I can easily do with the NS3. Most of the time that I'd stop moving the kite and try to park it in the front of the window I felt like I was inches away from a back stall. Sort of an uneasy feeling, as if I was about to loose control of the kite. My runs were sort of short due to the surface I was on so maybe parking would have gone better with longer straight shots with cleaner wind.

Due largely to pilot error all three kites had their little temper tantrums. You can see one for the 7m at around 0.45, one for the 3m at around 3:30, and one for the 5m in the blooper real behind the credits at around 11:45. I'm sort of proud of my save with the 3m LS. The crowd seemed to like it too because they cheered right after I saved it!  

 

 

[jhn.holgate]

Cool, Steve!  Nice to see you got a reasonable session in.  As soon as the kite starts to slow and you sense a stall coming on, just reach out and give the center line a gentle pull - that will normally stop the stall in it's tracks.  Although I would have to say that we shouldn't need to be dealing with a backstalling kite in the first place.  Without the separate brake lines in play, can you get it back in the air if it lands nose first?

I have also noted with my modified bar (basically the same as yours with a couple extra lines for the brakes) that it doesn't turn quite as smoothly.  I think the pulleys do two jobs - divide the load between front and rear lines so it's 50/50 at the bar and chicken loop and also add a little extra brake input when turning which the LS's seem to respond well to. (I don't think the pulleys alter the AoA whatsoever but I could be wrong there).  

Is the music by the same Phil Collins as in 'Genesis' or a different Phil?

[windstruck]

@jhn.holgate - Same Phil Collins.  This was Phil expressing himself as a drummer, not a singer.  Here is a quick write up about this band:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phil_Collins_Big_Band

Without the separate break lines in play I could not get the kite to reverse launch when nose down.  It was, however, slightly easier to nudge over on the ground than with the Delta-shaped NS3s, maybe because of their long skinny shape.

I learned something new that didn't make it to my original description.  I was overpowered with the 7m in the air under high winds and wanted to get the kite down on the ground for safety reasons.  I tried to deploy the DP with the kite high in the wind window under a lot of pull by pulling on the little yellow ball.  It took an extremely high amount of force to get the nose to crumple even a little bit.  I'm assuming this was because of the more spread out yellow-lined bridle system.  This effectively took this safety system out of play for all practical purposes.  It wasn't hard to scrunch the nose just for fun when the loads were more subdued, but if I really NEEDED it then it wouldn't really be there in this setup.  As it was I simply dive bombed the kite to the ground smashing it into the pitch knowing that as a single skin I wasn't going to hurt it.  That hit would have likely blown some cells of a two-skinner!

About turning:  As you surmised with your pulley discussion, having no pulleys made the LongStars turn in bigger arcs under heavy load than their similar square meter sized cousins the NS3.  At around the five minute mark (right in the beginning of the orange 5m footage) I perform a downturn to take out a twist in the lines.  The turn felt slower than it really looks on film.  Got a huge power boost from that maneuver!  More boost than you get with the Delta shaped NS3s.  I'm not as practiced with downturns as you know, but from this one single turn (the only downturn I've done in the buggy to date with the LSs) I know that these kites give you an impressive power boost. My final thoughts on turning is that it seems that similar width STARS have somewhat comparable turn radius's.  While I haven't laid them out side by side, I wouldn't be surprised if the 7m LongStar was every bit as wide as the 12.5m NS3.  The 12.5 is highly maneuverable for her size, but she's no 4m.  Same with the LSs under these FB conditions.  The LSs turn quicker than the big NS3s, but they arc the turns as compare to turn on their wingtips.

Not sure if I'll go all the way with this, but now that I understand the Z-bridle setup (thanks Spencer!) I may fiddle some more with the extra lines as you did in your bar mod.  I don't have quite the collection of spare lines and kite parts that you seem to have, but we'll see if I can scrounge some things together over time.

You'll notice I increased my score to a (somewhat generous) 7/10 in my review, up two points from my first view. 

 

[the_hatman]

LongStar Second Look!


 Sort of an uneasy feeling, as if I was about to loose control of the kite.

 

And this is not the normal state when buggying?

[ssayre]

Hey Steve, you still have the safety release you can pull. I don't use the yellow ball method myself. If I reach a state of being overpowered that cannot be corrected (obstacle downwind) then I hit the main safety.

if it takes force to pull yellow ball, then there will probably be some force when you hit main safety. Might want to do a trial run if you haven't already

Good to see it working better on normal bar.

Edited October 11, 2015 by ssayre