H-Bomb!

[andy666]

1) No teak bolts have been used!

Sorry mate, just a joke. I knew that they weren't tek screws

2) Is the carbon just for show? …... Definitely Not! ……. Many off the top European manufacturers are introducing designs and hardware to reduce frame flex i.e the new MG Supra has a bottom stainless tube - Extreme Buggies last year introduced their 'torsion or flex control system' this is effectively a rigging system that ties the bottom of the side rail riser to the rear section of the side rails reducing downward flex. Our carbon side fairings effectively do the same job above but are lighter and stronger. Within the fairing design I have incorporated flex control, belly pan, and somewhere to stick your race numbers. Yeh it looks cool but it is definitely not just for show!

I think you will find with the MG buggy that the lower rail is the actual frame, or "chassis", of the buggy rather then the side rails. This is because the side rails are designed to be adjusted for width. Simple concept, beautifully executed.

I hadn't seen the flex control system on the apexx buggy before. I didn't realise that downward flex was such a problem in race buggies? Freestyle buggies I could understand...

How much weight is actually saved using carbon fibre over stainless tubing for the backrest and flex control? Cost difference of moulding carbon fibre vs welding stainless?

I'm not knocking your design just for the hell of it. I understand that the moulded carbon fibre gives you a point of difference compared to the euro brands, but if it could be built cheaper/easier/quicker using stainless you may sell more buggies based on price.

[Hobbs Kite Buggies]

Andy - Why carbon over stainless? For a race buggy performance to improve past its current benchmark we need to look outside of conventional materials. A perfect example of this are carbon rear axles which were viewed by many with cynicism and scepticism at the start. They are now widely accepted as an improvement to stainless axles.

In terms of price - take a look at the cost of an Apexx or GT Rapide in Europe and they're all stainless. I can tell you they are very similar to the cost of a H-Bomb to purchase in Australia even with all that carbon.

………………..

Anyone who wishes to view a buggy at Mona Vale are very welcome! Just contact me via e-mail or phone to arrange a time and date.

If a few Canberra guys would like to take a look, maybe we could meet halfway or at 7 mile Beach, Gerroa if we get some wind.

Cheers

Dave

[jhn.holgate]

I think 2 1/2 grand for a custom made, carbon axle buggy with disc wheels is actually pretty darn good value. Particularly as the wheels are a goodly portion of that. Speaking of which, from time to time, there has been discussion on obtaining a set of these type of wheels. Dave, is this something you would be able to do if someone wanted a set of the wheels/tyres ?

[BobM]

If a few Canberra guys would like to take a look, maybe we could meet halfway or at 7 mile Beach, Gerroa if we get some wind.

I'd like to be in on that - just have to get the wind and tides to co-operate

[Tiger37]

[quote Anyone who wishes to view a buggy at Mona Vale are very welcome! Just contact me via e-mail or phone to arrange a time and date.

If a few Canberra guys would like to take a look, maybe we could meet halfway or at 7 mile Beach, Gerroa if we get some wind.

Cheers

Dave

[Slartibartfast]

I really don't mean any offence but it kind of does look more like a stainless buggy that has a carbon rather then fabric seat:

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure carbon fibre has it's advantages over cloth but it doesn't appear to have lost much steel. Indeed it is still tipping the scales at a similar point to the 'All Steel' buggies.

And...

As andy666 pointed out (with 'tek screw' comments aside) the mounts that actually hold the CF to the frame don't seem in the least structural. What's the reason the structural components aren't made of carbon fibre? If your objective is to loose weight it's these parts that need to be replaced, not the cloth seat and reinforcing struts.

All the best with your project though,

Slarti

[andy666]

It's not even a carbon seat Slartibartfast, the seat is a normal canvas job made by buggybags in the uk. That's my whole point about the carbon vs stainless steel. Even if those side panels do add strength (we'll have to take Dave's wording that) it could of been done easier and cheaper with stainless tube.

[Hobbs Kite Buggies]

Guys - We've never claimed its an all carbon buggy! It's a very similar design to most other race buggies, the differential is that the carbon parts will make the frame more ridged than without them.

I could have easily built a buggy that looked like every other race buggy out there but that's not what this project has been about. If I had of copied another design you would have all turned around then and said "Nothing new here he's just copied someone else's design"

Why not more carbon parts - simple price!!!

[Clive]

The Aussies aren't shy on critique,

I understand the carbon thing, it's somewhat of a signature for your designs, and why wouldn't you given its something you have a lot of experience in. Definitely makes a difference to the product.

Truth be known, you're not likely to sell a whole bunch in Australia, firstly there's no race environment to create a need for race buggies, from observation it seems we will spend 3-4 k on a kite easily, but not on the hardware, there's not a whole lot of people here who can really claim to be of race quality, ( I'm certainly not), most of us get out about once every 2 months if we're lucky. Of the 46 or so people who've gone more than 100 k an hr only one claims to be an Aussie. ....... And it's not someone I know..... ( at 103 Khr who is Matt Bedford)

Give the Europe thing a red hot try, I'm sure the better pilots over there will give you a qualified appraisal of your design, and I reckon it's great to see an Aussie trying to crack the scene.

[Tiger37]

Dave,

I would be very interested to know if the rules of Formula One race cars apply to your buggy design. In other words, you are designing the ultimate race buggy for the European market. Once this has been proven in the buggy racing world and accepted by the fast boys, will we then see some of the technologies applied to every day buggies in the same way that Formula One innovation eventually is seen in our daily drives? If this means that you will be able to provide a "daily buggy" at a competitive price, then it may be a marketable product both in Australia and overseas?

[BGKD]

Greater weight is a benefit for a race buggy not a hindrance, sure a lighter buggy will accelerate faster, but the real problem with race buggy's is maintaining traction at high speeds and that requires weight, look at many race buggy designs and they include features for adding weights, last time I read the rules for buggy racing and there is a maximum weight not a minimum weight.

If you read the rules for kite buggy racing you will see that they are specifically written to reduce the ability of pilots to increase the weight of the buggy, ie no use of solid metal components and limitations on the amount of weight that can be added.

I'm afraid I'm with Andy on this, the initial buggy concept appeared to be a 'revolutionary' carbon design, and we pointed out many glaring deficiencies, now its re-emerged as a traditional stainless steel buggy with carbon dressings, and there are attempts at marketing it a 'lightweight' race buggy, when there is absolutely no demand for a lightweight race buggy.

This is again a blatant case of the tail wagging the dog, again the designer has entered into the project wanting to use carbon fiber to build a buggy without ever asking if its the best material for the job, and has used carbon fiber at every opportunity, this is completely backwards the correct way of designing a better race buggy is to use the materials that best address the requirements of the design.

On the positive side the steel work looks well designed and well build and there are some nice carbon parts here, i.e. carbon belly pan, carbon mudguard and carbon axle, all except the axle would be attractive to the buggy racers, but they are of much greater interest to the freestylers, but the bottom line is this is a traditional buggy with bling, remove weight saving carbon features and replace them with heavier stainless steel and it may be a reasonable race buggy, albeit one with some expensive bling.... but its not a carbon kite buggy, which is a good thing, give us an option for replacing the carbon with heavier stainless and it may have potential

[IMK]

Tough crowd! I might just keep my newly designed leggo, sticky tape and paper kite buggy to myself. It's highly configurable and packs down to a small size.

[Clive]

Tough crowd! .

True, but I think Dave's got a thick hide, last time round was much the same. There are some valid points made though. It's up to Dave to run with his project as he sees fit. If nothing else people have given an honest opinion. Albeit fairly critical, and even if a buggy came out to their design requirements, I doubt anyone here is going to front up the cash anyways.

Such is the commercial realities of life.

[IMK]

I agree, some very good points have been made.