How To Convince the Council

[Corvinus]

Hi there

 

Im working with a local retailer to try and setup a club at a local spot to prevent any problems occuring with the legality of kiting at our spot.

 

As of now, its common land, and only local bylaws apply, which are broken time and time again by the council themselves. So as of now, kiting there is a bit of a grey area, but id like to protect our sport there before a knee jerk reaction results in a total ban.

 

My objective is to try and setup a self policing group to use the land requiring insurance. I am not going to challenge the council just suggest ways in which we can work together and set up a group as a compromise.

 

Im essentially looking for some advice on how to approach this task, looking for any legal/professional knowledge on common land usage and most importantly any knowledge you have of where kiting has been banned/unbanned or monitored by the council or governing body to use as examples.

 

I look forward to hearing your responses

 

Dave

[Slipstream1599968661]

Not that I am in any way "in the know" but just a thought.

 

Rather than involving the council and invocking a reaction that could see your site getting a ban, would it not be better to form a unofficial group but with membership insurance ect ect, so that in the event the council do at some later date try and place a ban on you, you are in a strong possition to defend yourselves by being able to demonstraight your foresight in ensuring everyone using the land has done so in a proper and safe manner??

 

Please don't flame me, it just a thought I might be way off but I don't know:o

[SCrowther]

Not that I am in any way "in the know" but just a thought.

 

Rather than involving the council and invocking a reaction that could see your site getting a ban, would it not be better to form a unofficial group but with membership insurance ect ect, so that in the event the council do at some later date try and place a ban on you, you are in a strong possition to defend yourselves by being able to demonstraight your foresight in ensuring everyone using the land has done so in a proper and safe manner??

 

Please don't flame me, it just a thought I might be way off but I don't know:o

 

i agree here

 

maybe going to the council is asking for trouble

 

just let them come to you

[martin]

It was a couple of years ago when i spoke to the local councillor concerning the use of this site. Her "plumb in mouth" reply was that kite boarding would go ahead over her dead body:eek:.

I recon, keep it up, keep it safe, keep your heads down, & keep people off the road.

 

Good luck dude.

[SandMonster]

If people want to, setting up a club can't cause any harm & shouldn't cost people any more than they already pay for their insurance (I'm talking BPKA affiliated - dunno about others).

 

I would suggest keeping the club as independent of the retailer as possible as this will reduce any conflicts of interest. The retailer can still support the club with discounts, use of premises etc.

 

Once its up & running you can thein either approach the council or wait for them to come to you. You'd have to judge that based on your exact circumstances.

 

Obviously if you want to run formal events etc. (which if properly organised will get you loads of good PR) you would need to get in touch with the council first.

 

Good contacts are either Adam @ Turbulence Llandudno, or Alex @ Hangtime Fleetwood.

[Red Panda]

I can help if you want me to. I have PM'd you elsewhere. Its not as bad as you may think.

[spooky]

Priority one, get a suitable code of conduct sorted out and get ALL your local riders to follow it.

 

IMHO going to the council just puts you in the firing line, ie you may have highlighted a problem thats not really there??

 

Odds on if they do decide to do something about it, it will be on grounds of safety to other users, so you need to ensure you are not a risk not just at the time they raise it but at all times.

 

Besides if you fly responcibily and safely, less chance of someone complaining to the council in the first place?

 

Also with clubs, they have their own issues, ie child protection policies (may even have a restriction on unaccompanied minors ) Club insurance to protect the club officials etc.

Not anti clubs, but you have to weight up the Pro's & Con's.

 

Good luck, and remember "It is easier to ask forgiveness, than to ask for permission".

 

Jon

[mick]

If as many have suggested, in the words of the great Will Wiggle "you put your head above the parapet, you're likely to get it shot off"

[ct4oc]

It was a couple of years ago when i spoke to the local councillor concerning the use of this site. Her "plumb in mouth" reply was that kite boarding would go ahead over her dead body:eek:.]

 

 

if that's how she wants it, sounds fine by me! not that i would dream of promoting or recommending acts of violence of any sorts!

[mick]

Seriously, if it was me, and it was, I would suggest as Jon said, you get all the elements together. A serious safety policy and all that goes with protecting the public, who of course, will take priority in yours and eventually, the councils eyes. If like me, you then have some flyers who completely disregard everything you are trying to do, breach every guideline you deem acceptable then you have other problems. Your idea of acceptable behaviour will not be others and vice versa. Just fly, keep your head down and enjoy it while you can and finally, do all you can to not promote your spot.. Harsh but sadly nearly the only way. IMHO.

 

As far as the council in Coventry are concerned, no wheeled devices are allowed on common ground. A ban is only a pen stroke away.

[The Geoff]

For the life of me I can't remember if this is Scots or English law, but there is a definite precedent set in one of them for "established use" (my phrase). If you can use a facility, be it common ground, a towpath, a bridleway etc, and you use it without complaint for x years (10?) then you have set a precedent where it makes it very difficult to stop you doing so. Mountain bikers in the 1990s used this very successfully.

 

Obviously I'm not advocating you hijacking a local spot, but the patch we use locally has never had any problems that I'm aware of, we work in between the golf practice and dog walkers, and I've chatted to a bunch of "joe public" about the sport and on occasion let them have a go on a teeny Sting. It's all very friendly and I like to think there's a few non-kiters who would be on our side if the land owners ever kicked up a fuss.

[mick]

I think thats the answer Geoff. Working in conjunction. Unfortunately it takes one complaint to ring the alarm bells. They will not tread on the toes of football teams who use our common. They pay to use the common although they leave it in a right mess. Joe Public and his poo firing dog will not be stopped or the uninsured golf ball whackers. Its always gonna be us. Non polluting, environmentally friendly but oh so obvious.

[carltb]

these are the rules for ainsdale maybe you could modify them to your cause

 

 

JAN 09

KITE ZONE, AINSDALE-ON-SEA – RULES

These rules have been developed in consultation with Kite Zone users to ensure the health, safety and

well being of all beach users.

1. Observe and adhere to all national sporting body (BPKA, BKSA, BFSLYC, BLSA) codes of conduct

and guidelines as well as local regulations, club rules, local advice, Sefton Council byelaws and CAA

restrictions.

2. You must have a valid permit from Sefton Council. You must be able to produce your permit for

inspection at any time. It is your responsibility to maintain a valid permit and to comply with these

rules.

3. In order to acquire a permit, you must:

i) produce valid insurance (minimum of £5million cover required)

ii) sign an indemnity form

iii) sign to confirm receiving the rules and zone maps (Summer and Winter)

4. Stay within the agreed zone at all times. Use of any other part of the Sefton foreshore, either in the

ownership of Sefton Council or of any other agency is not permitted and could render your insurance

invalid.

5. Trading, teaching or touting for trade at, or in relation to, Ainsdale beach is not permitted, other than

by the Council’s authorised licencees. (Legal action may be taken.)

6. Park only within the beach parking area.

7. Rig up / down only in the rigging area and keep clear of the rigging area if it is in use for set up or

pack down.

8. No persons under the age of 16 to use Kite Zone without a responsible adult in attendance. Permits

will only be issued to under 16’s via a responsible adult.

9. When the tide is 100m or less from the beach parking area, all power kite activity must stop until the

tide has come in and then receded to at least 100m from the beach parking area.

10. Kite Zone may be closed due to other events taking place or to very hot weather or because of large

numbers of other beach users, and is not set aside for exclusive use by kiters.

11. All Kite Zone users must take note of public access, fishermen’s access, horse riding and other

activities and must operate at a reasonable speed and give way to all other beach users at all times.

Do not overfly any pedestrians or animals with your kite.

12. Do not use captive harness systems unless supported by a quick release system

13. Do not use Kevlar lines

14. Do not enter or overfly the Power Kite School Zone if it is in use.

15. Always look before you gybe / tack – The upwind/downwind rule is always in operation. The upwind

user keeps their kite high and the downwind user keeps their kite low.

16. If a head on collision is imminent, both users must turn right.

17. All users of all disciplines must assess the risks and hazards prior to each launch. Consider wind

speed and direction, weather conditions and therefore appropriateness of kite size / rig. All hardware

and equipment should be inspected for damage regularly; the user must have a continuous

awareness of the tides; obstacles; other beach users and their own level of skill. All users must

assess the risk on very busy days during the summer and not fly if the beach has a high level of other

beach users in Kite Zone. Inexperienced users should always exercise extreme caution.

JAN 09

18. Any users of Kite Zone, who intentionally cause nuisance, bring the use of the beach into disrepute,

or drive at excessive speed on the beach may have their permits rescinded.

19. Sand stakes must be made highly visible when in use and removed when not in use.

20. Never set up, leave or launch a kite in the parking area or in the area in front of the winter beach

parking area. All parked or unused kites should be packed or disabled.

21. No Jumping of landboards within the vicinity of other beach or Kite Zone users.

22. Have an emergency plan for yourself and others. E.g. contact the Coastguard 999.

23. These rules may be amended from time to time.

24. DRY Kite Zone

• Aerial buggy freestyle may only be undertaken by holders of a special J-Permit (same rules as

above apply). A competency test must be successfully undertaken in the presence of a qualified

buggy instructor and written evidence produced to certify that levels of knowledge, ability, skill and

competency are satisfactory.

• Buggy to kite tethering is not permitted.

• The use of kite killers is recommended for beginners.

• Kite Zone users must not enter or overfly the safe pedestrian zone of 40 (forty) metres from the

base of the sand dunes, which is identified by a post or sign marker at each barrier.

• Protective headgear must be worn for all wheeled activities. Other appropriate personal protective

equipment is recommended.

25. WET Kite Zone

• Protective headgear and other appropriate personal protective equipment is recommended for

kite surfing.

• The use of kite leashes is compulsory.

A disciplinary system is in place and breaches of these rules

may result in the your permit being rescinded.

These rules are underpinned by Sefton Council’s Seashore Byelaws

And have been agreed by the Kite Zone User Panel.

I have received and understand the above rules and the Kite Zone maps (summer and winter versions):

Print Name: Date:

Permit Holder Signature: Permit No: KZ

[mick]

You see Carl tho, you have this threat of permits being withdrawn. You are in the position that the council are already on board. We as general kiters do not have this threat. Many spots are put under threat by irresponsible kiters. BUT this word irresponsible is in the eye of the beholder. I agree with most of what you adhere to. At Sowe common on Sunday, a group turned up. 3 kites, one buggy. No helmets, insurance, kite killers and worse of all, no idea. One 6.6 Blade flew out of control, straight onto a football match. What do you do? We try to educate. Thats all we can do.

[Sway07]

I fly on the common and have never been approched by any one from the council/police. Flying safely and respecti g the other users of the common should be paramount.

I agree with people saying a code of conduct should be implemented, but totally disagree with the formation of a club.

 

I think it would cause more problems, making a club would put peoples backs up. Forming a club would mean bringing in exclusivity. Kite flying and using the common can be done by anyone, hence the name "common", from anywhere. You might as well say only people from Portsmouth can use the common to fly! Its rediculous.

[Sway07]

Hi there

 

Im working with a local retailer to try and setup a club at a local spot to prevent any problems occuring with the legality of kiting at our spot.

 

As of now, its common land, and only local bylaws apply, which are broken time and time again by the council themselves. So as of now, kiting there is a bit of a grey area, but id like to protect our sport there before a knee jerk reaction results in a total ban.

 

My objective is to try and setup a self policing group to use the land requiring insurance. I am not going to challenge the council just suggest ways in which we can work together and set up a group as a compromise.

 

Im essentially looking for some advice on how to approach this task, looking for any legal/professional knowledge on common land usage and most importantly any knowledge you have of where kiting has been banned/unbanned or monitored by the council or governing body to use as examples.

 

I look forward to hearing your responses

 

Dave

 

Dave, I feel if you approach the council you will ruin our chances of flying on the common at all.

 

I think you will find most people who fly on the common have insurance already.

[Morgan]

Also chip in with that there is only a select group of us we actually know, less then 20 I would say & if we all abide by the simple laws of Common Sense, then we should be fine.

 

There is however the matter of all the other flyers that turn up for a fly most, 90% I would say turn up with there kites fly well away from everyone and don't cause any problems you get the odd numpty which will set up his new ebay monster and cause havoc [kinda] but then most of the time 1 of us will help them "I know I always talk to anyone on the common with a kite just to have a chat see how there doing and if they want any help or guidance"

 

Now I think we need to stop people abusing the common I.E.

Set simple rules like:

- Stay 2 line lengths away from the car park

- At least 1-2 Line lengths away from people if you can help it

- Stay off the ROAD

- If you know your trying something new that may cause you too fall or loose control stay well away from people

- State a common setup and landing area [generally the double green boxes or single box opposite pizza house]

 

Stuff like that but then all of the above comes under "Common SENSE!!!"

 

Fly safe.

[Corvinus]

Dave

 

Dave, I feel if you approach the council you will ruin our chances of flying on the common at all.

 

I think you will find most people who fly on the common have insurance already.

 

I think this a bit of a sweeping statements, TKUK has been speaking with the council at regular intervals over the past 2 and a half years using many local kiters and legal representatives to support, and a number of flyers at port solent have shared their views with the council. I dont see how another pro-kiting voice can have any harm.

 

Also im aware alot of people have insurance, but thats not enough in the councils eyes to protect themselves and the public.

[Morgan]

Ignore this post lol wrong button

[Corvinus]

After chatting with a local warden yesterday it seems like a very difficult fight to get permission to use the common, so im still very interested in finding any ideas or other examples on how to pursuade the council.

[Corvinus]

If anybody is aware of any council owned land in the UK in which kiting has been allowed by the council, please let me know, i need some strong examples of existing schemes.

 

D

[mick]

Memorial Park. Coventry. Longford Park Coventry. ( but don't mention Sowe. In fact don't mention Coventry.) These are just examples of where MKF are given permission to hold annual festivals.

 

Oh and at these fests they do allow wheeled traction kiting.

[Kiteboyza]

If anybody is aware of any council owned land in the UK in which kiting has been allowed by the council, please let me know, i need some strong examples of existing schemes.

 

D

 

Pembrey, we succesfully got a ban lifted at Pembrey and Pendine

 

sort a club, constitution, rules etc, have it ready for when the poo hits the fan;)

[Krazy Kiter]

The Grove at felixstowe (suffolk) is a council owned piece of land i think (99% certain) Its about 10 football pitches big, and maintained by the council. A few of us fly there, and people generally enjoy watching us. Never yet had a bad incident with members of the public, but there is no set club, guidelines or anything come to that. We just keep a low profile and fly kites.

[SCrowther]

The Grove at felixstowe (suffolk) is a council owned piece of land i think (99% certain) Its about 10 football pitches big, and maintained by the council. A few of us fly there, and people generally enjoy watching us. Never yet had a bad incident with members of the public, but there is no set club, guidelines or anything come to that. We just keep a low profile and fly kites.

 

 

same sorta thing for the college fields i fly on

 

people enjoy to watch and we just keep our distance