carl999

Huge thanks for your time & effort putting the web site together Ash, All silly prices are on the below web-site http://www.mschsk8.com/kitegear/index.html Carl.

I really dont think we are getting anywhere here guys, if the BPKA want a testing system I am sure I will be involved, all I am saying is that, do we this being BPKA members want a licencing system, I personally dont believe the members do, I could however be very wrong. I also think the BPKA dont need a licencing system. Big John asked for some input, now he has some Should I choose to attend the SC, I would gladly take your licence Carl.

Ah the perfect arguement, driving on roads and the driving test, do you really want me to go into figures for deaths on the road A perfect example of how a testing system needs to be sustained throughout someone's driving years, I happen to get tested every year at work, my bad habbits are picked up and ironed out, its all written down as evidence of training that ensures I am adopting a life long learning approach, as well as continued proffessional development!! Carl.

Garry, these speeds are also possible in a none race situation, potentially with already unlicenced riders, how have they been reacting upto now also shows that a licence is just a licence, it proved you competant at the time of taking it, as I have said there are other ways of proving competance, ways that could be verified at each event. Now dont take this personally Garry, when was you issued a licence? what evidence do you have to prove you are still competant? No offence intended!! Carl.

Mike, if we did that there would also be nothing to stop any Council from forcing everyone at every site to prove competence, the ramifications would be massive This is I believe why Sefton initially went down the Fed route, as well as they already have bylaws for land yachts. As people have said, for now if people want to race at the SC find a trainer to issue a licence. Voluntary cycling profiency, voluntary power kite / kite buggy / landboard certificates of achievement Carl.

If you want to race in the SC then yea deffo licencing is your way, not the BPKA way, not at the moment anyhow, I would also strongly oppose it for the reasons I have given above. Wind please wind god, I need to fly Carl.

Its a big issue Simon & I do understand it, you have to have a licence to race, you also have too join fed clubs to get access to some of the good sites, you are also forced to join the fed which in the modern world is years behind the times. You therefore have to comply with fed rules, I suppose I challenge rules, even more so when I feel there are better ways of doing things, I am sure the passion in you guys will lead you the right way but I doubt the BPKA will want to adopt a licencing system, like you have also said how much work would be involved just to attract a few more potential racers? I would be going to the insurance company and explaining the faults in the system but assuring them that your alternative is a much better sound one that will never need to be changed. Carl.

Simon I do not dispute what the licencing system is in place for, it may prevent some crashes but not all, thats the nature of our sport, we all crash from time to time. All I am saying is there are other ways of achieving your goals, much more professional modern methods that encourage continued professional development, best practice supported with written evidence to prove your development, life long learning etc etc. I would strongly advise some of you familiarise yourselves with Sport England Wake up guys it will be 2007 soon. Carl.

So do we really need a licence to say we can start, stop & turn? Now I know there is a lot more to racing than just that but to get someone started in racing what do they really need to be able to do ? I would suggest the above with some etiquette, maybe what to do in the case of an accident, i.e EAP (emergency action plan) I could go into tons of detail here but I will resist!! Flag familiarisation. You could also just create some event rules and get people to sign upto them, these rules could state that you are signing to say you can start, stop & turn safely, done at each event you also get rid of the need for continual assessment, I could take my licence tomorrow but only race in ten years time, cause a major crash, a licence could then be viewed as worthless. Carl.

Carl I disagree with you 100% that a licence is a barrier. Sadly your comment is out of touch with common sense... go to any motor racing or motor cycling event and the chaps and chapettes are licenced... Licencing shouldn't be seen as a barrier BUT shows a level of competance to fly around a course safely and be aware of the rules of the road. It ensures your safety and importantly the safety of others. The sport in general welcomes with open arms noobs and with appropriate help and assistance can aspire to getting a licence once they are competant. I actually feel that for the first 6 races a noob licence holder should have a novice plate as they do in motor racing... just so that experienced pilots can be aware of inexperienced. It's actually the same in paragliding! Hope you don't take offence at my comments... I talk as someone who has done the pathway... David No offence taken at all, I happen to agree totally for the fed to have a licencing system, 80mph in a class 1 on a public beach Yep get these folks licenced, kite buggies however are a different kettle of fish Have a look around all the Councils who allow kite sports, are they the ones screaming for licencing ? If they do then we may have too but at the moment they are probably leaving us to enjoy our sport Carl.

Some people need to consider the impact of a licencing system, you can only come to this event if this if that if the other, many of us are very happy the way we are operating now, BPKA clubs host events and if you are insured turn up & play, this approach encourages people to take part in sport without lots of barriers. Personally I would hate the thought of organising an event only to find myself along with all other instructors being forced to stand around assessing peoples skill levels. Our insurance claims history shows councils that we can operate as we are without any need for licencing!! If the BPKA want licencing then I will offer my assistance. If you really want to attract other people into racing John, have a look at this probably the best advice you will ever get on this thread. http://www.wiganpowerkiter.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Fun.jpg Carl.

Been there and done that one Spooky, BBC then members, put over £1000 into the fed, money that was being used to fund fed racing, that just aint fair. The other option of course is that the fed clubs form BPKA clubs on there sites, that one is too easy tho but would give people a fair choice Carl.

Not argueing but a licence is also a barrier to people taking part in sport, the government are trying to address the health of the nation by encouraging people to take part in sport, licencing is just a barrier. If every sport adopted your approach we would all have been forced to take our cycling profiency tests when learning to ride a bike, I am assuming we can all ride a push bike here Fed is a landyacht organisation, class 1's can travel at scary speeds, hence the licencing, kite buggies just dont do these speeds in general, when you look at the high speed days you also generally get a much quieter beach, so the risks are again minimal, then you look at a kite buggies manouvrability, again the risks are minimal. The fed/pka however, have a well established international racing scene, this could be helpful in the future. Carl.

John, I would contact Adam Jones, BPKA Head Coach. Put your ideas to him and see what he can do, I did this for our certificates of achievement, there is nothing stopping us creating a BPKA race licence, I just aint too sure that licencing is the best way forward, I do however understand your problem, its probably a condition of the fed insurance, I could go on to other things but these forums just create wars As Simon says the SC has a following which is serving the race fraternity well. Should the BPKA wish to organise its own racing then I am also sure it will sort it out, this would not be done to compete against any other race series though, not in my book anyhow, the whole sport needs more events!! Carl.

Craig says it all to be honest, I did post something regarding licencing on another racing thread but I got no response, I did try though!! Until the licencing is sorted I cant help any more, can a Fed/Pka trainer issue a licence to BPKA members, I doubt this very much. Carl.

Why? Is it that much of a closed shop??? Mike - I dont have that much time to wait, the insurance officer from the Fed has only given me a very small window of time to get something sorted. If I dont get anything back from people or from any senior member of the BPKA then this opportunity will be lost. I had been told that the BPKA wanted to orgainse some races and get involved again in the race scene, but it does seem as if this is not the case and they do wish to keep the barriers up and stay unilateral. Why dont you try the correct method of contacting the BPKA, try this e-mail. Feedback@bpka.co.uk

You should appeal your personal ban and the buggy jumping ban needs looking at, but as I said - there are ways and means. As for victimised... I will show all interested persons when the time is right with proof!! Maybe the whole reporting procedure also needs looking at, this again is being addressed not just for Ainsdale though, I could mention an incident in Preston and how we should adddress that type of problem Glass houses

I think the BPKA would be on Flexi like a ton of bricks if things on the BPKA forum were ever posted on here

Si, with three clubs on the beach I am pretty certain SCCS are getting mixed signals, I think we all know BJ's views, the use of his smiley at the end of his sentace just says it all When you look at the wording on my ban maybe some of you will see why I am so pi**ed off about SCCS!! "I have no choice but to once again rescind your permit with immediate effect and ask that you refrain from using Ainsdale Beach for any extreme kite related activities." Then if you consider who reported me and their positions within clubs & kite schools its very obvious what the real situaltion is, well it is to those who have been around for a while. There is also no official appeals procedure against such rulings, again another reason for me fighting this, buggy jumping maybe but why ban me from ALL KITE SPORTS? Even more worrying is the fact that at the kite surfing club meeting at the weekend rumours are that they are trying to kick me out of their club I have never kite surfed at Ainsdale, what rule did I brake ? So I am using all the legistlation / policy documents around to help fight this form of victimisation. Just some below, we all have a right to exercise and take part in sport!! http://www.audit-commission.gov.uk/reports/BVIR.asp?CategoryID=ENGLISH^576^LOCAL-VIEW^AUTHORITIES^107230&ProdID=E56098D0-34F6-4fb4-A68F-D1B4319F7DDC&SectionID=sect2#sect5 the Council ensures that future Recreation Management development initiatives reflect the priorities of local communities by undertaking regular survey work amongst existing and potential users on their needs.PPG17 Sport and Recreation This PPG describes the role of the planning system in assessing opportunities and needs for sport and recreation provision and safeguarding open space which has recreational value. The guidance observes that it is part of the function of the planning system to ensure that through the preparation of development plans adequate land and water resources are allocated for organised sport and informal recreation. It says that local planning authorities should take account of the community’s need for recreational space, having regard to current levels of provision and deficiencies and resisting pressures for development of open space which conflict with the wider public interest. It discusses the role of all levels of plan, planning agreements, and the use of local authority land and compulsory purchase powers. It discusses provision in urban areas, the urban fringe, the Green Belts, and the countryside and particular sports including football stadia, water sports and golf. (Original release date September 1991) Department of Health ,Physical Activity Action Plan http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/10/57/10/04105710.pdf North West Regional Economic Strategy http://nwda-cms.amaze.co.uk/ResourceImages/RES06v2.pdf North West Public Health Observatory Physical Activity, Exercise, Sport and Health: Regional Mapping for the North West - Executive Summary http://www.nwph.net/nwpho/Publications/ActivityandHealth_NW1.pdf Sefton MBC, Chief Executive, Graham Heywood. Measuring & Developing Emotional Intelligence http://www.improvementnetwork.gov.uk/imp/aio/1033781 Working Better TOGETHER, The Sefton Compact http://www.thecompact.org.uk/module_images/Sefton%20compact%202002.pdf Ask yourselves how the Blackpool ban was over turned so quickly ? Carl.

Matt, you are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine, freedom of speech etc etc, these forums are a main advertising tool for any kite sports venue, they are also for discussion, stirring sh*te or following the advice from Sefton Sports Council ? I have this time chosen to follow their advice, my MP is also doing what he can for me!! I also informed you when we last met that I will fight the ban this time, you obviously disagree with me, I am fed up of being victimised!!! Carl.

Here is the other big issue with Ainsdale, one of the three club there is trying to achieve "CLUBMARK" this is an award from Sports England, to get clubmark we need to be having club competitions & inter club competitions, this can all be done very informerly in the style of KiteJam, with the current buggy jumping ban at Ainsdale the Council could also be seen as deliberately trying to stop the development of a particular club. http://www.clubmark.org.uk/ Despite Sefton Councils approach we will achieve this standard, it just means we are forced to travel to other beaches, their loss I suppose, last year the Sefton Tourism dept contacted me looking for info, it was also very saddening to inform them that we are not the "official" club and felt that due to our none official status we could not take part in their survey. Thankfully we are now recognised as an official club. Carl.

Craig its a fair point bud, I suggested your system last year, we even created a buggy "freestyler" certificate of achievment scheme (voluntary) During the 2005 freestyle demo, the Council expressed their concerns as you described, hence with the support of our Head Coach Adam Jones, we introduced the Certificate of Achievment Scheme, still no joy!! What we really need to ask ourselves is, do any of the other freestylers on land or water have to pass a test ? The answer is no!! So why should freestyle buggiers have too? The race buggies take a race licence which is fair enough but forcing people to take tests is not needed, children are not allowed on Ainsdale without adult supervision, so once again no child is just going to strap themselves into a buggy. All some of us want is an equitable approach, the Council have just listened to the kite surfers and decided not to impose compulsory wearing of head protection on the water, many of us are also aware that kite surfers die, but this is not being seen as dangerous! The Council just look silly in my eyes and are loosing a great deal of respect!! Carl.

I am not expecting a quick answer guys. "Thank you, I will deal with your appeal against having your permit rescinded on receipt of the documentation. an electronic version is best as in the interests of fairness, I will be consulting, Health and Safety, the Council's insurers and the Legal Department. The final decision will not be made by myself. There have been no recent decision on what is allowed in respect of Freestyle Kite Buggying and there are no plans to review existing traction rules. Buggy jumping is not allowed and will remain so." I anticipated this type of response, hence I also addressed my appeal to my local MP who has written to the Council, I also involved AOSPKC's Sports Council. You can jump on a landboard, kite surf board, speed in a buggy etc etc. Looking at the response on here Wurzel, you represent aprox 10% this figure based on the number of permit holders for Ainsdale, the last figure I heard was 95 land permit holders. So this 10% of people need a place to exercise & have fun, Ainsdale is a great site for all power kite sports, excluding this small group of people is unfair!! Carl.

Maybe its because the Council believe it is dangerous "It is not my intention to recommend that aerial freestyle be allowed at Ainsdale. There are other beaches in the North West that seem to allow this activity and can support your needs. Although I am not sure they actually understand what it is and the dangers related to aerial freestyle - but that is their decision." I have written an appeal, waiting to hear back from the Council. Carl.

Nolan, I have added you to the AOSPKC area of the BPKA forum. Any other members of AOSPKC who are having problems viewing our BPKA section please get in touch, each individual member has to be added manually, we obviously need you to firstly be members of AOSPKC. Many thanks, Carl.