6 hour Supercup Endurance event

[big-jon]

Thats a posibility - but I would say the top ten racers from each club - I suppose it depends on how many clubs there are what clubs decided to send pilots and what the total number of racers would be.

 

At the moment because of the very wide range of abitilties at the supercup the field is very spread out. If it turned into 60-70 pretty good race pilots it may get a bit cramped on a race course !!!

[king_of_the_sky]

good point Jon but eventually i think this would happen, not for a while tho.

[8015]

Well I have been meaning to get a license for some time now so that's not really an issue in it's right. I am currently a member of a FED club, so that also isn't currently an issue, but there is an issue of duality.

 

I live in Scotland, and I'm in the SPKA whom I should be doing my license with (to be honest I haven't been in touch with Dan about it because I live on the opposite side of the country), however they are no longer part of the FED (but may be affiliating directly to FISLY because it's free?). The main reason for dropping out of the FED was that the vast majority of flyers in Scotland dont race so there is no point being in (SPKA cover all kitesports), but as we still don't have a Scottish series, or any events this is more a gut feeling than anything definite - I know of 6 of us that definitely race, and there must be others!

 

Locally we are forming a club, which is affiliated to SPKA, but will not be FED, to be honest I don't think the beach we have is very suitable as a FED beach even restricted to class 8 so I doubt the FED would want us. Most of the racers I know are likely to join this club, and it may be that the club does go on to provide a start point for people interested in racing in Scotland, but that goes far beyond what is planned so far and doesn't take account of the fact that at least 50% of the membership will be ATBers!

 

Currently I am a member of WSYC, which means I should be able to fulfill all the requirements that way (can FED clubs issue licences already?), but I can't help feeling that this looks almost like a back door into racing to avoid the current lack of support in Scotland! I actually joined because the beach is so much better than any I have found in Scotland yet

 

I really do think the way forward is for FED clubs to be doing training and club level licensing, I just have a problem that I can't see any FED clubs popping up north of the border for a variety of reasons which means Scotland is going to fall way behind.

 

I guess it's our problem more than yours, maybe the racers up here could set up a FED club without a home beach?

 

JIM

[GaRRy]

Well I have been meaning to get a license for some time now so that's not really an issue in it's right. I am currently a member of a FED club, so that also isn't currently an issue, but there is an issue of duality.

Ok ill try and answer these as we work down

 

I live in Scotland, and I'm in the SPKA whom I should be doing my license with (to be honest I haven't been in touch with Dan about it because I live on the opposite side of the country), however they are no longer part of the FED (but may be affiliating directly to FISLY because it's free?). The main reason for dropping out of the FED was that the vast majority of flyers in Scotland dont race so there is no point being in (SPKA cover all kitesports), but as we still don't have a Scottish series, or any events this is more a gut feeling than anything definite - I know of 6 of us that definitely race, and there must be others!

All fair comments but being in the Fed in not just a matter of racing. AS a Fed member you will have guest rights at other clubs these will vary from club to club but you will in general be able to visit as a club with no access problems.

yes there will be exceptions like no buggies at brean and no landboarders at Hoylake (and also no Landyachts a Ainsdale to show it aint all one sided)

 

Locally we are forming a club, which is affiliated to SPKA, but will not be FED, to be honest I don't think the beach we have is very suitable as a FED beach even restricted to class 8 so I doubt the FED would want us.!

Well that aint so. To affiliate need following :-

At least 3 members

site with permission to use in writting (note this can be class restricted)

Risk assesment

Names/addresses of chairman/secretary/treasurer

Willing for members to join Fed (£10 PA) and take fed insurance (£20 PA)Thats it

 

Most of the racers I know are likely to join this club, and it may be that the club does go on to provide a start point for people interested in racing in Scotland, but that goes far beyond what is planned so far and doesn't take account of the fact that at least 50% of the membership will be ATBers!

ATB's are class 7 and can also join and get the same benefits as the rest. Nothing to stop class 7 racing all it nees is someone to organise it. I will admit Fed at the moment is a bit uncertain about the more extreme side of class 7 but I have pointed out that its to there benefit to regulate this by risk assesments etc rather than just dismiss it as will other wise make clubs unworkable and im pretty certain this will be fully resolved.

 

Currently I am a member of WSYC, which means I should be able to fulfill all the requirements that way (can FED clubs issue licences already?), but I can't help feeling that this looks almost like a back door into racing to avoid the current lack of support in Scotland! I actually joined because the beach is so much better than any I have found in Scotland yet

Yes Fed Clubs can issue licenses (Well I can at WSYC for starters). But only to there own members. Note this is something we will be pursing to get all WSYC member to do in near future. Wont be compulsary yet but almost certainly will be by middle of next year.

 

I really do think the way forward is for FED clubs to be doing training and club level licensing, I just have a problem that I can't see any FED clubs popping up north of the border for a variety of reasons which means Scotland is going to fall way behind.

Cant see any reason why should not form one as already explained above it aint exactly difficult.

 

I guess it's our problem more than yours, maybe the racers up here could set up a FED club without a home beach?

JIM

I belive there are provisons for that but sound like you already have a perfectly aceptable site (or even several). Note the site does not have to be exclusive to your club just that your club has permission to use it.

 

One final point these new conditions to race in Super Cup etc are to ensure everyones safety and also so that event is properly insured etc. This is why the change is gradual over next 18 moths or so to allow everyone chance to get themselves organised. Gray and others have worked hard with Fed to get them to allow us a gradual change over (strictly speaking rules for 2006 should apply to all there events now according to there rules/constitution)

[SandMonster]

Off topic I know, but have you buggied at Luce sands /sandhead, Boater?

 

http://www.flexifoil.com/community/forums/showthread.php?t=43655

[QUOTH]

i know that this is pretty late and now totally useless comment(as it wasnt picked up on at 1st. no offence)

 

will stunt/freestyle [ie delta] kite be allowed??? as far as i know at the mo its banned

[big-jon]

Sorry but can you clarify - allowed where Quoth?

[8015]

All fair comments but being in the Fed in not just a matter of racing. {SNIP}

 

Well that aint so. To affiliate need following :-

At least 3 members

site with permission to use in writting (note this can be class restricted)

Risk assesment

Names/addresses of chairman/secretary/treasurer

Willing for members to join Fed (£10 PA) and take fed insurance (£20 PA)Thats it

I have a problem with the whole needing permission to use the site in writing issue. I have been involved in the Scottish Land Reform process through kayaking, the act is passed and will become law as soon as the access code is passed (October is the forecast, Scottish Parliament could dither though). The basis of the act is that everyone has the right to access open land for leisure activities as long as they do so responsibly, or to put it another way, as long as we can show that we are responsible the Scottish Parliament gives us permission to buggy (walk, cycle, kayak, race horses and carriages, not using motorised vehicles though) anywhere, with sensible exceptions (gardens, land developed for specific activities although in the case of sports fields they could be used when they are not being used for the purpose they were set out for). So permission isn't a problem, getting the Scottish Parliament to put that hard and fast in writing without alternative ways of it being interpreted (it is deliberately very vague) is going to be a problem!

 

ATB's are class 7 and can also join and get the same benefits as the rest. Nothing to stop class 7 racing all it needs is someone to organise it.

I thought this was a hazy interpretation of the speedsail class that not everyone is yet convinced about? Either way most ATBers I know are completely uninterested in racing, they reckon it would be crap on an ATB anyway, they would rather get a buggy to race!

However, as long as FED doesn't insist on racing the class, and because our site is not suitable for FED racing (although Flydad has thought of alternative formats that would work) if they are interested in the other benefits maybe we can get them on board (pun spotted later).

 

Of course the main benefit to the ATBers would be use of other beaches, that would mean Ainsdale now, St Annes hopefully in the near future but our next closest FED beach and prior to Ainsdale becoming FED last week it was the closest is Hoylake, and the council won't license it for class 7's. Also if I recall the rules for Ainsdale pre-FED stated somewhere that "landboards must not be operated in the air" or something similarly amusingly worded meaning NO JUMPING - well that seems to be 50% of the sport!

 

Yes Fed Clubs can issue licenses (Well I can at WSYC for starters). But only to there own members. Note this is something we will be pursing to get all WSYC member to do in near future. Wont be compulsary yet but almost certainly will be by middle of next year.

Excellent - if you plan training/assessment days and put them on the calendar it would make things much easier for people The first I heard about the PKA licensing day for this year being at the icicles event was the week after..... I know Stu is assessing people for licenses at other events if asked very nicely, but I think it was the lack of notice that threw a bunch of us into a tiz - not least of all me until I realised it isn't even Stu I need to get a license from! GaRRy - If you fall into that "can't be bothered racing today" mood on Saturday, I bet there will be a few club members who would happily demonstrate their competence to you and help you acheive the target of licensing them all by the middle of next year

 

I belive there are provisons for that but sound like you already have a perfectly aceptable site (or even several). Note the site does not have to be exclusive to your club just that your club has permission to use it.

Yeah, the site is great for teaching and pootling about and the wee hills can be a challenge, and sometimes when the tide is right out and the wind is right we can get a 2 mile run down the beach, but it isn't really very suitable as a race venue, except using Flydads alternative race formats.

Having spouted about the land reform above I am sorry to say that part of our own way oif being responsible has been to contact the council about getting formal permission to use the site, and they have insisted we form a constituted club and are even talking about a license to use the site which we may have to pay for. To a larger extent I think this goes against the land reform, under which they are required to make provision for leisure access to their land, especially as they seem to be looking to make access exclusive to the club, which I am sure there is a clause against ion either the land reform act or the access code. Like I said about yesterdays rant, much of this is Scottish issues and I suspect some of you are struggling to get your heads round them - sorry!

 

One final point these new conditions to race in Super Cup etc are to ensure everyones safety and also so that event is properly insured etc. This is why the change is gradual over next 18 moths or so to allow everyone chance to get themselves organised. Gray and others have worked hard with Fed to get them to allow us a gradual change over (strictly speaking rules for 2006 should apply to all there events now according to there rules/constitution)

For which I would like to thank them all very much!

I'd also like to thank everyone, especially GaRRy, who has helped me try and understand how the system works, or is supposed to, because to be honest the information is not as readily available, or perhaps just not readily understood, through the associations in charge of it all.

 

Parting shot, just got my SPKA renewal form today, guess when my insurance runs out? that's right tomorrow! Useless! The cheque went in for last post so as far as I'm concerned they should have it tomorrow and cover will be continuous (so if conditions are good for kitesurfing on Wednesday I'm there!). Luckily I'm a WSYC member now so my FED insurance will cover me for the supercup even if the SPKA/PKSF try to deny all knowledge, I certainly won't have a new SPKA card or PKSF letter by then!

 

JIM

[big-jon]

Boater - yep thats a lot for us to get our heads round ! Sure someone will come back with a reply for you.

 

I just want to put in at this point that jumping (of class 7 and class 8 ) is allowed at Ainsdale, although as Garry said the Fed is looking into the more extreme side of things. For now Ainsdale is not just restricted to Fed insurance. Day insurance is also available, this will be Fed insurance, but as we have said for now it does not hold any restrictions for class 7's

[big-jon]

Just bumping yet again

[Match]

Just buming yet again

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[big-jon]

up it goes again !

[WENPET]

A bump for BJ

[big-jon]

The Council have been looking over the 'Fed' insurance policy and as a result they have decided that everyone that takes part in the Endurance must hold 'Fed' insurance. For all those who do not hold 'Fed' insurance this is easily solved by joining Kitebeach for the day.

 

Unfortunately this will incur a slight charge - I will post the amount as soon as I have talked more to the 'Fed' insurance officer.

 

Good supercup today for most - not really for me as I managed to snap my lines an hour into the race almost 2 miles from the pits !!!

 

If anyone needs anymore info please mail me - if you have any positive comments then please post them here.

 

Thanks

[muppetdude1599968590]

is it me or is he on a dictatorship mission - do as i say not as i do???

 

geeze some fekin weirdos enter the teaching profession - dont bother replying hitler

[silus]

here here!!!

[silus]

Hey BJ thanks for the rep comments you*&%^%$^%%$£$^%^&*&%$£%$£.

[Gray Cloud]

Muppet is an interesting name?

 

Not sure what it is you are trying to get at but John is working very hard to put on a great event for you all. The difficulty of actually achieving this I could go on for ever about so please don’t bad mouth the only person who is trying to help you. Trust me when I say he is getting nothing out of it except a big headache. Kite beach shop are about to make a hansom lost on the event as well so don’t think there is anything in it except for the competitors.

 

Anyone who has a personal issue should enter the event and take advantage of all the work hard working Muppets in the background!!!

 

Come on lads lets all work together to get a brighter and more fun future for our sport.

 

Graham Steel

[Hopewell]

Hey, would it be possible to enter a 2-man team instead of the 3??

 

Thx

 

SB

[8015]

is it me or is he on a dictatorship mission - do as i say not as i do???

 

geeze some fekin weirdos enter the teaching profession - dont bother replying hitler

Well if the PKSF could give a straight answer about how they cover racing maybe Fed insurance wouldn't be needed. Anyway, it's just a small charge for specific insurance on the day to anyone buggy racing that isn't in a fed club already. You can still go and kitesurf during the event with whatever insurance or lack of you see fit so I really can't see your point?????

 

Councils, yes they are a pain the a$$ but they do have the power to ban all of us if they want to (and your average local councillor is on the biggest power trip of anyone). By holding big events in conjunction with councils, demonstrating that we are safe and sensible and can enjoy the beach without putting others in danger is going to help all kitesports in the long term. Part of being safe and sensible is controlling the beach when there are big events on - non-racing parakarts that are unaware of how the race works pose and are in significant danger if they are on the race course (parakart area), anyone outside the parakart area will be safe as the course markers will be well enough inside so that even if there is a pile up none of the carnage will end up outside the zone. To be honest, whilst I was mildly amused by Colins post on the kitesurf forum (I thought some of the comments were a bit OTT too), publicising your accident rate is not the sort of thing that gets the councils on board, i'm sure lessons have been learned from all of them though so I'm not passing judgement about why they happened, stuff does until you have made enough mistakes, I must be due some more.

 

I highly recommend the Ainsdale kitesurfers (40+ of you?) to turn up on the day and watch the start before, or after or whilst heading out on the water, if there are as many entries as Hoylake yesterday you will see something fairly impressive!

 

Yesterday we had around 50 buggies started, the first leg was a fast reach for about 1.25 miles to an upwind mark. Most buggies reached speeds of 40mph on that first leg and the field did not separate much so when they got to the mark it became interesting! I'll admit that after that it's not much to watch unless you are in it, I was just so gutted that I rolled my buggy in practice and hurt my shoulder so badly I couldn't race. I probably won't be fit for Ainsdale now, at least not in time to organise a team. I just hope I'm fit to get back in the water again soon because I was just making good progress

 

JIM

[Mark Rose]

I think you`ll find there were 70+ starters Boater, and yes we did all seem to hit the first turn at the same time..lol

It was,erm,interesting.

Fantastic day, well organised as always. Well done to all involved.

[big-jon]

Thanks again for the positive comments Boater. Shame you will miss the Enduro. Thanks also to Gray for his support.

 

It is so good to go to an event like the Supercup and be around people who only care about buggying and the sport as a whole. There do seem to be a lot of people who are only interested in arguing and causing trouble. Thankfully it does seem that we are finally sorting out some of the problems at Ainsdale, we are just left with a few a-holes who still want to keep the bad feeling going.

 

Sad really I think !?

[carl999]

Ok guys need a little help & advice, what type of turns do I need to learn & practice to enable some fun in this 6hr enduro?

I am sure many of us at Ainsdale could do with this advice, busy at the mo practicing freestyle (OBEing really) but there is nowt wrong with learning anything new with a kite.

Do you have too do an upwind turn? Or can I just go a little further up the course and do my usual turns, yea I know you will all pass me (if not already done so) , I will only be taking part for fun.

 

Oh yea people are starting to pull together at Ainsdale, lets hope this event opens the door to the 14km possibly available to us in the future.

 

BTW I was with a Sefton council official the other day in the office & we measured the existing summer parakart zone, its actually 1.2 km, 200m more than I thought:D

 

Carl.

[big-jon]

Glad you will be taking part Carl and also good to hear some positive comments about Ainsdale.

 

As for turning, there will be a wide range of 'classes' of pilots taking part as there are at the main supercup events. I would advise just practising, the idea in racing is to try and keep your speed up, however you can do it. It is a good sight to see the top guys performing tack turns at high speed with big kites in a high wind, but these do take a lot of practise and a certian amount of bottle !!

 

If anyone at Ainsdale does need some advice and help then just ask, there are a few people who use Ainsdale now who have taken part in most of this years Supercups at least and have a fair race experience, some of them can even perform tack turns if you ask them nice enough (I can't yet!) That is one of the things I enjoy so much about this sport, people always seem very happy to assist each other to improve their standard and solve problems. I know the club is trying to sort out a race trainer and some class 8 masters, but this will take time. There is nothing wrong with one buggyer showing another how to do something.

 

Maybe we could set up some courses on the weekends leading up to the race so that the locals could have a go at racing around a course and get some practise in? As I have said before it is our home patch so I am hoping we can give the other racers a run for their money.

[8015]

For turning you really have 3 options:

Upturn Gybe, as usual

Downturn Gybe

Tack

 

Which you use depends on factors:

 

> Upturn Gybe is what everyone learns, you should be able to do it anywhere, but if you are flying race kites they can sometimes luff if you don't turn fast enough because it keeps them at the edge/top of the window. Also you will have to go way past an upwind mark to make sure you can pull off a 270 and still go on the upwind side of it. As you enter the turn raise your kite, and as soon as you have turned drop it back down to the power (in high out low)

 

> Downturn Gybe, is a great one with race kites, instead of going up and over you turn the kite down so it puts a twist in the lines and dives through the power zone. Race kites don't luff when doing this, you do however get a massive kick of power mid-turn and you need some space to run or slide downwind as this happens. I have been practicing these and do them 95% of the time, it was a downturn that rolled my buggy on sunday when it failed to slide during the power kick. You possibly have to go further past an upwind mark as you need more space to slide Obviously to do this you also go in high out low, but the kite goes low much earlier.

 

> Tack, is great for those upwind marks but it takes some learning. You need to find the perfect speed to do it in your buggy and work on the timing. As you enter the turn you take the kite high and slow to your turning speed. You then turn the buggy directly to the new course by taking it into the wind on the way, leaving the kite high and unpowered - it will be behind you during the turn. Once you have rolled through the turn and the kite is back in front of you (with a twist in the line) you can drop it gently into the power and keep going. It's a more fluid turn and you can do it right beside an upwind mark, but remember your kite will stay higher for much longer than when gybing. If you get it wrong you might be pulled out backwards, but more likely will end up buggying backwards and have to make a sharp 3 point turn to get going again.

 

You also need to think about when to use the different turns - With large numbers of racers of mixed ability hitting a mark at the same time, you can guarantee most of them will perform some kind of gybe. Something to think about is that if you tack whilst everyone round about is gybing, there is a chance one of them will be fast enough that their kite comes out of the turn low whilst yours is still high - tangle, broken lines etc. Just ask Buggykiller and Big Jon about this!

 

Practise all 3 turns but note that very few pilots use tacks in racing because of the pressure. There was an excellent example of tacking for tactical reasons in one of the PKA races. Simon Bosworth was leading Graham Steel and signalled a tack (presumably to put him off and make him alter his course), when they got to the mark, Graham managed a tighter and more successful tack and got past - Simon must have been gutted as that move would have shaken most pilots!

 

JIM