JKS Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I disagree Bryan ..... the web link clearly states that this is not a trip for the inexperienced. It also states that you have to supply all your own gear. That being said, when you take into account the many many kiting event that have already been undertaken by XK + various shops ... they have provided (without charge) copious ammounts of gear for participants to use. So in my opinion, associating a cost to these items is a tad on the bold side Sure there will be 'cash' cows that I have missed .... I simply assesed the obvious and came up with a considerable short fall in accountable cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGKD Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I disagree Bryan ..... the web link clearly states that this is not a trip for the inexperienced. It also states that you have to supply all your own gear. That being said, when you take into account the many many kiting event that have already been undertaken by XK + various shops ... they have provided (without charge) copious ammounts of gear for participants to use. So in my opinion, associating a cost to these items is a tad on the bold side Sure there will be 'cash' cows that I have missed .... I simply assesed the obvious and came up with a considerable short fall in accountable cost. The website also says training can be provided and from other information sources they will apparently 'fix you up' with gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goz Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I would like to know what buggying experience the organisers have themselves. Seems to be one area where they have omitted to give any detail. Might be a case of the blind leading the blind. Unless there are some very experienced buggiers here in Australia that have managed to fly under the radar of everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluggo Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Leading the expedition is Geoff Wilson , one of the four buggiers that crossed the Sahara desert last year . I think that puts him in the experienced class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 No doubts this is a dream trip !! Just too $$ for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goz Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 Leading the expedition is Geoff Wilson , one of the four buggiers that crossed the Sahara desert last year . I think that puts him in the experienced class. I guess that qualifies him, as having some experience Was sounding like someone trying to cash on the unsuspecting to me As much as I would love to do something like that I have to throw my hat in with Marty, to expensive for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluggo Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 Yeah big bucks alright, but then again any trip out there will cost you some money . I wonder what Tom Cruze ( the original mailman ) from out there would think of this trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoutherlyBuster Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 This is how I would do it. Go with experienced buggiers you know and trust, a small crew. Go with some 4WD enthusists that you know and trust that will go on the trip any way just for the pure 4WD driving experience, the kiters will just add to the adventure. I would take small steps, don't expect to make the crossing first go, just go there to see what it is like and do some day trips and find where your limitations are, then come back again armed with the knowledge of what is needed for the full trip. I think the biggest challange will be carting the necessary water with you, not replying on the 4W drives that is. Some sort of wagon/trailer on the buggy might be needed. Then the other thought is, why try the crossing, why not just a base camp. Take all the necessary food and water and keep it at base camp and do day trips and come back to your comfortable tents and food each night. That way you still experience the thrill of the desert runs with out the bloated cost. Would be a lot simpler and cheaper. I can see a Wind Cube Simpson Desert base camp coming on. Norman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eluder Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 Has anyone tryed to call the number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eluder Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 southerlybuster is right all you would need is some people who love to 4WD and use them as a support crew to carry all the supplies tents water food make sure you are able to contact somone in case of emergency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 As I said before this crossing has been a dream of mine since I first got into kiting but I too am a little perturbed by the $$$, so myself and a couple of mates are seriously looking into mounting an attempt our selves, on the cheep There are three main tracks through the Simpson, the French Line, Rig Road and the WAA line. Of the three the French Line is the most direct and most commonly traveled. Though it is possible to take a combined root taking in parts of all three tracks my thought would be just take the French line which travels virtually due East the whole way through. Both Dalhousie Springs and Purnie Bore (the main highlights) are common to all three routs. The Bureau Of Meteorology have historic wind data, as well as wind climate information available for Oodnidata and Birdsville (links to the historic/climate info are toward the bottom). The information is a little skatty but particularly the climate 'Wind Roses' show a tendency for northerly and southerly winds throughout August, though the winds were highly variable last year. Here is a plot of the 9am and 3pm wind strengths at Oodnidata in August: Wind speed is in km/h. As you can see the wind speeds vary significantly but they average out to about 20 km/h. Climate averages are a little lower at 13.4 km/h, 18.5 km/h for 9am and 3pm respectively. We are in the very early stages of planning but at present we have two buggies and two 4x4'ers interested. We are looking to make a loop similar to the loop discussed in this travel blog, though we'll no doubt return along the Birdsville track. I'm speculating possibly 1 month to complete the loop - about a week to make the drive up, two or so weeks to cross and say a week to drive back. We have no idea if we will make it the whole way but we're all in for the trying I'm keen to attempt the crossing in August in order to make the Birdsville races on the 2nd and 3rd of September. Anyone else interested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesy Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 You have got my interest Slarti, if my back is still going well I'm in . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eluder Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 I am interested also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Joel Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Slarti, if you are serious about organising such a trip get in contact with Nigel or The Duke. Both have already done the Birdsville track about 8 years ago and will be able to provide you with some good info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eluder Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Slarti, if you are serious about organising such a trip get in contact with Nigel or The Duke. Both have already done the Birdsville track about 8 years ago and will be able to provide you with some good info Did they do part of the track or did they cross the whole dessert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Joel Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Did they do part of the track or did they cross the whole dessert? I'm not sure where to where they did the track, Dave (Sand-Yeti) had a bit about it online a few years back but all info has since disappeared along with the port fairy kite house that had a fair bit of info up. However they did it with support vehicles, it was before my time kiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand-Yeti Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 I'm not sure where to where they did the track, Dave (Sand-Yeti) had a bit about it online a few years back but all info has since disappeared along with the port fairy kite house that had a fair bit of info up. However they did it with support vehicles, it was before my time kiting. It was back in 2003 when we did the Marree to Birdville run. In Birdville we did buggy out to the edge of the Simpson Desert from Birdsville as we had some extra days. I don't know that the Birdsville track experience could provide much useful info for running the Simpson Desert. The Simpson Desert does sound like a great thing to do and the sort of thing I'd love to have a bash at. Problems a for us on the Birdsville Buggy Bash 1) The organiser of the event screwed our team of 7 UAE guys at the end, which left a bitter taste in the mouth. I won't go into the details again as we did let it be known back then what was done to us. 2) The winds weren't that great which meant either sitting waiting or moving slowly. 3) The support vehicles including trailers (Landcruisers) had many mechanical problems. We stopped a few times to repair punctures. Axle failures on the trailers, burnt clutches and broken windows were just a few of the other problems we faced. We had plenty of tooling and spares for the buggies but these held together a lot better than the support vehicles. 4) Injury. One of our party had a bad time after being lifted from the buggy and smashed into the ground. He broke his coccyx (tail bone). We were lucky that it occurred early on as he was on the edge of being air lifted by the flying doctor. He was rescued by normal road ambulance. A thing that went well at the BBB was that with the exception of a nasty argument one night between a couple of the Aussies. (Us UAE guys kept out of it) our group got along extremely well which made the experience quite pleasurable. The Duke, Nigel and two Melbourne cops (part of the support team) were exceptionally good fun. We spent a night in Mungaranee which was one wild party as all sorts of people crawled out of the bush to see us buggiers. I'm sure they'd ever seen power kite before. Based on that experience few of the things you need for the Simpson Desert are: 1) A well planned trip organised by a trustworthy person or persons. 2) Good winds (Aim for 100 kms per day). 3) Reliable support vehicles. 4) A fall back plan in the event of a buggier getting injured. 5) Be with a bunch of guys you know you are going to get along with very well because you will be very dependent on each other if something does go haywire plus it makes the trip more fun. Since the BBB 8 years ago, I have developed my buggying skills substantially and have spent a lot of time running our deserts in the UAE. Important points: - Drinking Water. Dependant on the air temp, will decide how much water you drink. Here in the UAE, I drink about 1 litre an hour during the summer (note that our summer temps often sit around 50ºC.) Important as well is to put the salts back in the body. I use dehydration powders that contain potassium, sodium, magnesium & some other stuff). These do a great job in warding off cramps. - Desert terrain is going to seriously affect how many kms you can manage. Mentioned above was the problem of bushes and where to drop the kite without shredding it. The same goes fro the buggy tyres . Sharp thorn bushes will puncture bigfoots rapidly. Some of that green gunk to seal tiny holes works well. The other comment I saw was that there is very soft sand in places, which means using BF's. Barrows don't work well in the sand. Here on a long run I have to traverse sand dunes that are all sizes . Funnily enough the big ones aren't so difficult to manage . We get smaller ones very close together & that gets very tiring. Forget about making any speed in the sand dunes. It is all about speed control. i.e. you need to be able to fly your kite very well, be able to manoeuvre your buggy in the right place and always making decisions very fast. The wind direction is very important. Going upwind in dunes can get depressing as the distance you move forward may only be say 20 yards but you could have done 300 yards in the buggy to have made very little headway. In the buggy it is easy to climb the shallower windward side of dunes as they are normally harder as well. The leeward sides are normally very steep and very soft. In these situations I follow the dunes along the trough until I find a place I know I can get through. I.e. If I was doing the Simpson desert, I would look for a wind that is coming from behind me. Look for the prevailing winds so that you can climb the windward side of dunes . If you do get on to the flats later with the wind directly behind, you will have to tack to avoid the kite collapsing . If you attempt 550 kms of desert without support, you are certainly a real adventurer. Dragging a buggy with a trailer behind up dunes can be a daunting and indeed a seriously challenging task. I don't know that I would like to try that. Here I might run about 100 kms without support but will always have my GPS & mobile phone with me just in case something goes wrong. Luckily, the UAE is well covered with mobile phone emitters. In the more remote areas I have had to climb a big dune to get a signal. The Simpson desert is remote and you would need to check whether your mobile will work out there. If you are doing it without support, water will be a very precious commodity. Don't take any sugary, fizzy or alcoholic drinks because they will make just thirstier. If sleeping in the desert, then it's nice to have a cup of tea in the morning and evening, otherwise just stick to water. I don't know if you get some stinging beasties in the Simpson desert but if it's like here with scorpions, poisonous spiders etc, it's good to have a small first aid kit with something you can put on bites /stings. There's probably a lot more I can tell you about desert buggying as I've been doing it for 10 years up until 5 weeks ago. I was 31 kms from my car got hit with a nasty gust that blew me off of a 60 foot sand dune and smashed my wrist. I have had a T shaped metal plate screwed into the bones to hold it all together. Currently, I'm unable to fly and working hard to get movement & strength back into my hand but it's going to take a couple of months yet. The accident, rescue and hospital adventure is another story that I can post if you are interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Great info there Dave ... your input is warmly welcomed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goz Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Thanks for the Information Mr. Yeti Hope you mend fast so you can get back to the dunes. Would love to hear the story if and when you have time to do a write up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand-Yeti Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Thanks for the Information Mr. Yeti Hope you mend fast so you can get back to the dunes. Would love to hear the story if and when you have time to do a write up. The info I presented is just based on my experiences and hope it helps. I have the write up on my accident already done but will post it on a new thread so as not to distract from this important discussion on planning a trip across the Simpson Desert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 Thanks for that Yeti, it's really good information to have. Was your expedition more of a tour than a bash with mates? I'd heard of the Birdsville track run but haven't heard anything about it. I'm surprised you had so much vehicle trouble. The Birdsville track is meant to be fairly easy going these days. Of course things can change rapidly, especially if the rains come down, but even so you would think a Landcruiser should be able to handle it. I guess you can just get unlucky some times. As for the trek: I've all but abandoned the idea of attempting the crossing unsupported. If all goes well with an assisted crossing then an unsupported venture may well beckon but I must concede for the first venture it would be far more sensible to have vehicle support. Winds seem to be variable all year round, so it's very hard to make reliable projections but I've been budgeting on about 50km/day. The Gobi was crossed at an average speed of 58km/day and the 5th element are projecting 55km/day. If we give ourselves 2 weeks we only need average 42km/day, which should be achievable. The Simpson is famed for having 50+ days, and while they do occur they are far less common than most would have you believe. In fact the average daily maximum in August is surprisingly low, more like low to mid 20's. That being said it still gets hot and can most certainly be dangerous for the poorly prepared but it's not like the gates of hades most tell stories about. The nights can get cold though. As for tyres, I'm actually looking into getting Golf Cart tyres fitted to a set of those 4" Sysmic rims. I have ordered a set of Duro Excel Touring tyres from the states but I'm starting to get doubtful as to whether they'll end up coming through. These tyres are 4ply DOT rated tyers with an 8.5" tread. I should think they would be good for the trek. If these tyres end up falling through than next I'm looking at these 6ply Kenda tyres on eBay. While the Simpson has a great many extremely long sand dunes they seem to be separated by surprisingly clear planes. It's very strange but while there are an awful lot of dunes (some 1100 in total) and that they can run for 100s kilometers there are generally not that tall and are separated by surprisingly clear spans. And interestingly, the higher the dunes the wider the separation. 15m dunes tend to be separated my about 200m while 30m dunes are more like 600m apart. So, if the worst happens and were not able to buggy over the dunes for any reason we should be able to haul our buggies over on foot, one by one, kiting our way across the flats between. The largest dune, commonly known as 'Big Red' is about 40m in height and is one of the last dunes to cross before the final decent in to Birdsville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted April 13, 2011 Report Share Posted April 13, 2011 As for the trip's beginning, I'm thinking there are a few points that could mark the beginning of the expedition: 1. The first and most obvious place is the camp site at Dalhousie Springs. The Dalhousie springs are located on the Western edge of the Simpson and, according to this website, are about 50 km east of the first sandhill. It has a well facilitated camp sight and would make for a good site from which to begin an expedition but what urkes me is that while it is most defiantly at the Western end at "50 kms east of the first sandhill" I'd still consider it to be 'in' the desert. I'm wanting to cross the Simpson from the first sandhill to the last and starting the expedition from with in the desert doesn't quite jive. Although the more I look at it I'm starting to wonder if that website has gotten its "East"s mixed up with its "West"s. 2. The second and most geeky would be the Geogrpahic Centre of Australia. There has been a surprising amount of controversy over exactly where the center of Australia is but it is now generally considered to be at S25° 36.607’, E134° 21.288’, which is about 20km West of Finke. This centre is known as the "Lambert Gravitational Centre" and, in 1998, was calculated from a survey of 24,500 mainland high water mark points. If Australia were made of a uniformly dense material of even thickness throughout than the Lambert Gravitational Centre would be located at it's center of mass. In September this year they are looking to run the "Simpson Desert MiltiMarathon" (15 Marathons in 15 days - an effort that is surely going to but our buggying to shame) from this geogrpahic centre to Birdsville. According to there website this makes the trip's total distance 640km and, if we were to follow the same rout would give us a total of 1315 sandhills to cross. 3. Most 4x4-ers who cross the Simpson do so from Oodnidata to Birdsville and while Oodnidata would be a good place to start it is a fair stretch North along a fairly dull rode before you finally turn East at the intersection to Dalhousie, so I'm thinking this intersection could be a good place to start. I believe there is a track called 'Rocks Road' running from Oodnadatta directly into the Simpson Desert meeting the French Line about 50km East of Dalhousie at Freeth Junction but from what I understand it's a pretty rough track and skips out Dalhousie anyhow. 4. Another suitable start point is the Mt Dare Homestead. Mt Dare is between Fink and Dalhousie and would be place to start if we were approaching from the north but given we'll be driving up from Adelaide it's a fair excursion out of the way. In fact the best way to get to Mt Dare would actually be to drive through Dalhousie its self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camarillobrillo Posted April 14, 2011 Report Share Posted April 14, 2011 Hi Hilary, You have been a bit busy! Looking forward to this like you can't believe! Those tires look pretty decent to, wonder how they would go up the dunes and through the soft sand! Maybe different sets of tires is the way to go! Cheers Jasper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted April 15, 2011 Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 Those tires look pretty decent to, wonder how they would go up the dunes and through the soft sand! Maybe different sets of tires is the way to go! I was getting them in particular to use in the sand. What makes you think they wouldn't be good for it? They have an 8.5 inch tread (which I'd thought would be wide enough for soft sand - normal barrows are 3 inches) and and are made with 4 or 6 ply construction (which I should expect would offer reasonable thorn protection). Are you concerned they may be too heavy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand-Yeti Posted April 15, 2011 Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 I'm surprised you had so much vehicle trouble. The Birdsville track is meant to be fairly easy going these days. Of course things can change rapidly, especially if the rains come down, but even so you would think a Landcruiser should be able to handle it. I guess you can just get unlucky some times. Actually, we encountered lots of rain after leaving Adelaide & as we drove through the Flinders range to Marree. We met with the local cop in Marree (really nice & helpful guy) who said the track was going to be closed because of the rains. However, He saw we were really keen to get going and allowed the track to stay open. I guess it was a close decision based on conditions being just about acceptable. During the second day of buggying, we came across thick muddy areas of track. I remember it well because the Kiwi buggier were racing neck and neck for a lot of the track. We were laughing at each other as we were caked with the thick mud and looked like swamp monsters except where we had been wiping our goggles to see where we were going. Occasionally, we went through some flooded areas and all the mud would get washed off but the water was freezing. Causes of car problems: 1) Getting stuck proved time consuming because of lots of shoveling. We used one Landcruiser to tow the stuck Landcruiser out. You need to carry a heavy duty rope or webbing, not the light tow ropes for pulling a saloon car along the highway but something substantial that you can snap a badly stuck vehicle out. Applies to soft sand as well as thick mud. 2) The Landcruisers we had were hired & I don't think they were 100% mechanically sound. We found one had a slipping clutch as soon as the condition got a bit rough. This one went back with our guy who broke his coccyx. Later the clutch packed up all together & those guys had to get another vehicle. The second clutch was probably damaged by some bad driving by our group when we made a side trip across to Lake Eyre. There was a fairly good sized sand dune that we crossed. The one vehicle got burried in the sand & the slipping the clutch in those conditions didn't do it any good. We finished the route, drove it carefully back to to Port Fairy & then on to Melbourne but when it was returned back to the hire company, the clutch was slipping quite badly. 3) Windows breaking. Higher up on the track the track became quite dry and was stony. We were carful when the Road Trains past as these things don't slow down. We all gave them a wide berth particularly with the buggies. Stones shooting up from them could have easily break a window. Our broken windows were caused by stones shooting up from the back of the Landcruisers hitting the trailers & bouncing back on the car's rear windows. 4) The Landcruisers all carried spare wheels, so there was no problem in changing the wheels. However, we didn't have enough spare wheels for the trailers. We had one trailer tyre rip a side wall & the inner tube torn beyond repair. We removed the tyre & patched it up as best we could. We used a BF inner tube as a substitute. The BF inner tube was smaller than the wheel rim but rubber stretches & with some effort we managed to fix it. We only had about 100 kms to do and the tyre held together until about 5 kms before Birdsville. There we managed to buy another tyre & tube but got ripped off by the local garage mechanic. He has a monopoly and makes a good living fixing cars coming off the Birdsville track or out of the Simpson desert. 5) Trailer axle failure. One of the trailers had its axle supporting brackets come apart and the wheel rubbed on the mudguard causing the paint to burn off due to friction. We did have plenty of repair parts for fixing the buggies but ironically not needed for them We robbed a plate from the high lift jack and various buggy spares to repair the trailer. This worked well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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