damp_weather

Nice dog. Dogs often get such a bad press. We need more pictures of kites and pets peacefully co-existing.

Thank you Steve and Shawn for your kind remarks. - The kite notes "book" is very much a work in progress, lots more to go in it, and of course corrections and updates - but it is good to share. Steve, regarding a wiki - do you mean a set of connected html pages, rather than a pdf as it is now? Or do you mean something like the wikipedia or the Fractured Axel wiki? Either way the answer currently is "no", but that may change. You can see my current views on adding to a wiki at the end of: http://www.seek2know.org.uk/kites/PJKites/PJKite.html. If you have a specific format in mind, experience of its advantages, and perhaps advice on how to create that format, I'd like to hear about it. Otherwise downloadable pdf has just been the easiest way of getting a formatted (electronically searchable) document out into cyberspace.

...Well, where to begin? In English speaking Europe the big trick kite forum is the Fractured Axel. Among the manufacturer's forums, the Prism one is the best/most active English language one for information. Then there is the Classy kites forum - a small and helpful mainly trick kite community, mainly US based. ...And many kite clubs have their own forums. If you speak other languages the list expands enormously. - In short, you could easily drown in all the information. If you want a list, you could download my notes from http://www.seek2know.org.uk/kites/PJKites/PJKite.html . There is a chapter full of urls. And I must try harder not to browse quite so many forums.

We had a wind meter break one exceptionally windy day. ...Well, besides kudos for knowing exactly what winds people are flying in, a wind meter is useful for those times when it is actually useful to know the wind speed down to the last mph or so. For example, last weekend at the seaside, the wind was consistently staying above 9mph, but usually only by 1 - 2 mph. I wouldn't have been able to tell that without the wind meter. - The significance of that was our vented kites fly down to 9mph, but not much below without walking backwards, and we needed something that would fly slowly and stall near the centre of the window for coaching purposes in a very crowded festival flying area. No seriously, more generally, an accurate wind meter is such a useful device for saving the time of getting out the wrong kite for the prevailing wind conditions. (Around here, that is usually about whether we need SULs or indoor kites in the 0 to 3mph range.) - And we learnt which kites were right and wrong by comparing their behaviour with wind meter readings. ...Several experts say to us that it is all about instinct. One day my partner and I hope to be good enough to accurately read conditions without a wind meter. - But until that day, I'll be the guy looking silly holding his arm up towards the sky.

Yep, This problem of recognising kite orientation is specifically why, for our very few custom made kites, we specified differently coloured wingtip panels. Personally I suspect that symmetric patterns are often chosen as it is more difficult to recognise visual clues for kite orientation, and so it adds to the mystery in videos and demos. - But not so good for learning tricks.

If you are thinking "elegant" rather than bold colours, then Kevin Saunders' Temptation, as featured in his video comes to mind (Not the Chinese manufactured versions, or even the pictures on Kevin's website.)

..You live in the Northern hemisphere, yet regualrly check out kite forums in Australia.

Well, at the risk of stirring things, for public display purposes, perform in time to a piece of music, rather than having music as a background. - IMO it is rather like dancing. - Some people can do the most amazing gymnastics, but it only starts to look to most people like a good dance when the gymnastics fits with the music and vice versa.

Oh, this depends so much on the individual. Some newbies are brilliant on yo-yos and other wraps tricks, but struggle with 540s. Others master backflips first. With me, the axel was the trick that I first really mastered. I think that which you get first also depends on your kite, its setup, and on the wind conditions. On the basis that it is the thing with the least to learn, I'd expect that the backflip low in the window would be easiest. i.e. Just move backwards and pull arms back from in front to behind you to get the kite to fly fast, with perhaps a flick of the wrists at the end of the pull back for a final bit of speed, then throw arms forward and lunge forwards to get the nose to fall backwards. - But it doesn't work that way for many people. Mostly in 1 - 4mph. But this is because of local conditions. We had to get the right SUL and low wind standard kites to make it work. I expect that people in winder places could do the same sort of thing but with higher wind kites. The low winds and low kite speeds certainly gave us more thinking and reaction time.

At the risk of second-guessing someone else's words, I suspect that what Nigel means, is to find a light wind where the kite will fly fairly comfortably without having to move backwards, and you don't have to move fast forwards much to keep the kite in a stall. ?? Is that right Nigel?

Being an Australian kite site, I guess you are not so interested in indoor flying. - But perhaps you do get still days. This is the best really low wind video I have come across (courtesy of fractured axel forum). http://www.r-sky.com/videos/venezia.divx ...The tricks are the same as in higher winds. - But they are slower and you can see more of what the kite is doing. Also low wind fliers know how difficult it is to do what they are doing so elegantly

Gary, You are probably right. Although I do not understand what would make the nose rise off the ground in order for the kite to catch the wind.

I think I am loosing it, and am no longer sure that the Prism Trick Show video shows a launch from kite on its back nose towards pilot straight into a fade. - Will have to keep trying to study that. But Gary, I think I have found the explanation for the launch you experienced. It is on the Dodd Gross Flightschool DVD, under the name of "nose pop-up" launch. Let's start with the kite on its back on the ground with the nose towards the pilot. Then pull on both lines evenly so that the kite balances on its nose, with the wingtips high up in the air. Now (and this was the bit I wasn't understanding) tip the kite back slightly, so that the spine is pointing into the air but away from the pilot. Then pop equally on both lines to pull the wingtips towards the pilot. The kite goes into a flare (maybe not a particularly flat one), with the nose facing away from the pilot, and the kite rising off the ground. Now it is relatively straightforward to pop again to convert the flare into a fade. So I am guessing that when Gary you turned away to view the car you applied tension to the lines, pulling the kite up onto its nose. Then somehow there was another pull to bring the bottom of the kite (which is uppermost as the kite is upside down) towards you and the rose off the ground. Then there had to be a third pull to convert the flare into a fade. Don't know how much gusty wind conditions could have helped to achieve this.

Big Whoops! :o:o:o Just checked the Prism DVD myself and saw that all the sleeping beautys were straight into the air. Ditto Mama74. - Surprised I didn't get well and truly flamed for this. :o:o:o In my defence, as mitigation, I enter the plea that in Prism's FreeStyle Pilot flight guide (the booklet that accompanies some versions of the Prism FreeStyle Pilot DVD), on page 5 it says: "Starting with the kite on its back with nose towards you, pull one wing to rotate the kite on its back 180 degrees, then tug the other line to scoop air under the nose into launch position." ....Talk about overlooking/forgetting things. Perhaps I should practice/check I can do it without the launch position step. P.S. In addition, on the old Prism Trick Show video, near the end, there is a launch straight from kite on its back nose towards pilot position into a fade without the benefit of roll bars and other aids. - Like alot in that video (e.g. Easy Overs, Mobiuses) don't know how they do it.

I was just taking you at your word that a sleeping beauty was not intended, as you wrote "or not" after what looked like a good sleeping beauty into launch position. I know that there is nothing new under the sun, but going straight from kite on the ground on its back nose towards pilot into normal flying without the wingtips touching the ground (excepting: going via a fade achieved with mechanical assistance e.g. roll bars) would be a new trick to me.

I think the problem is that trick flying has not reached the stage where the tuition is really good - good enough that if you follow the instructions exactly you will be guaranteed to do the trick. So instead we have to learn from our experiences. And if an experience can be reliably repeated, it becomes a trick.

OK - a guide to the Insane - a trick that you can already do most of. Right, you already know how the Insane starts - you throw a backflip, give plenty of slack to the non-popping line, pop for the lazy susan, and the line that you are pulling gets trapped behind the wingtip next to it and the kite proceeds to start spinning around where the line is trapped. - At this point you could curse and run towards the kite to lessen the inevitable crash. - If you do then the kite does not spin so fast. Alternatively you could stand your ground and pray. - By that I mean literally stand still, with tension only on the trapped line and the other line completely slack. - The kite starts spinning fast as it plummets earthwards. - To recover from the tangle before the kite hits the ground, pull on the slack line. The trick to reliably recovering from the tangle is to pull on the slack line as the kite nose is moving downwards in the rotation. Then the kite is being pulled into a backflip position, and the trapped line is being moved away from the wingtip along the lower spreader. Then it is a simple matter to pull out of the backflip - because of the kite rotation pulling against the lines, the kite will probably do that for itself . If you pull on the slack line as the kite nose is moving upwards in the rotation, then you might dislodge the trapped line and everything will be fine. However the trapped line is trapped against the rear surface of the wing tip, and there is a real risk that it will remain there, and the kite will then continue in a tangle towards its earthly fate. ....I know that you prefer to work on the basics first, and therefore learning the Insane at this stage may not be what you want. In that case, the thing that I am offering is the escape from the tip wrap at the end of the Insane. If you can recognise the type of tip wrap, and recognise when to pull on the not tip wrapped line to escape from the tangle (nose moving downwards) it is a useful recovery technique.

Hi Gary, - Well my itch to comment has been increasing, either here, or on another forum you have posted to, so I have finally given in to it. First of all, for all the reasons that in particular Cesium explains, I agree that your video looks really really good. In fact, I suspect that this is was behind some of the points Promethius was trying to make in "another thread". The flying looks excellent because it uses such clean lines. This is the stuff that many people, especially those uneducated in how difficult tricks are, like. The storm cloud background, good photography and camera angle, double the excellent effect. And loved the music. Secondly I am bemused by your comments on what you can do and not do. - People seem to learn things in such very different orders. For example, I learned axels two years ago, but only now am I working on snapstall landings in the middle of the window. So the things you want to do I can do (e.g. holding a snapstall in mid-air), the things you can do, (but didn't intend to?) I can't do: two-point snapstall landings (not cleanly), and things you can do but don't regard so highly I can't do at all: spinstall landings in the middle of the window (no - don't work for me - the kite doesn't fall cleanly to the ground and I usually end up holding a stall a couple of feet off the ground). And as for flare to fades and lazy susans - yes I can do them interminably, but apparently not in the way others are recommending. Even fade launches feel different to me than how DaveH describes in a reply to you elsewhere. And "tricks" like holding a backflip all the way to the ground - well this has often been a nuisance for us rather than a wished for trick. You know that second lazy susan attempt in your video - an Insane! - when done a little more aggressively it looks spectacular - kite suddenly spinning in an unusual way and falling out the sky, with the kite miraculously untangling and flying away just before hitting the ground. Not sure what the moral of all this is, but I suspect it is something like: celebrate and solidify all the excellent stuff that you can already do, whether you intended to do it or not. At least don't end up like me - within a few months of starting, I could do reliable 540s. But I didn't appreciate them, or how I was achieving them. So I neglected them, and six months later I couldn't do them at all, and had to spend several weeks learning them all over again properly and consciously.

You met up with Jason, and you two didn't do trick flying??? I think that Promethius expresses views that do appear in the kiting and non-kiting community. Dealing with the non-kiting community first - such as the bulk of those who turn up out of interest at the larger festivals. - It seems a fact of life that to the un-initiated alot of trick flying looks like really bad flying. And a demo team with tails and a ballet routine keeps the crowd happier than a trick show. The freestylers usually claim a corner of the site for themselves and generally get left alone by the bulk of the public. Nevertheless there are often short trick competitions in the main arena at the end of festivals. It does seem to be the case that people either "get" tricks, or just don't. Mixing tricks with some precision sections seems the easiest way to convince on-lookers that your tricks aren't just bad control and mid-air accidents. A story from the practice field. I was practicing lazy Susans and often getting the kite falling out of the backflip half way through the rotation and having to recover in mid-air from a tangle. Some teenage boys noticed this, and started taking the mickey. Switched to some patterns with sharp turns and square corners and they stopped taking the piss and went away. In the UK sport kiting community, some sort of compromise and understanding is being reached, with various ballet and trick competitions sharing the same field and judges. Over here there are competitions to full STACK IRBC arena rules (we even get trained about them in boot camp), but there are also much more informal competitions, both in ballet and in freestyle. The advantages of the more informal competitions, are that for beginners they are a gentle introduction, and for the rest that they are just more informal and easier to set up and often easier for competitors to prepare for. The less formal competitions include "Jaffa Cake cup" (flyers give each other orange flavoured biscuits to show who has done best), "Trick Out" (judged knock-out heats of flyers tricking) and "Secret Ballet" (perform to a random choice of music). Do you have Health and Safety down under in the same way as we do in Europe? - It is a key major advantage of the full STACK IRBC AKA rules that the Health and Safety aspects are covered, so you don't have people just wondering into the flying area, and conversely the flyer is less likely to fly into the bystanders beyond the arena boundaries. - I am continually bemused that demo flyers and STACK competitors are insured for millions of pounds and dollars to fly in the one location where they are extremely unlikely to harm anyone, but that casual flyers outside the arena are often uninsured and can cause carnage.

Regarding kites for pairs/team ballet/precision flying, I can only talk from experience of trying a very limited range. Back in January we spent a training weekend flying Matrixes (predecessors to Furys) in 10 to 20mph winds, and it took ages for our arms to get well again. In fact I am still nursing a wrist injury. By reputation full-size Furys have a similarly strong pull. We have a Skyshark vented Fury which I flew for the first time in February in 10 to 16mph winds - and it pulled very strongly. And it was alarming how much the spreader and leading edges bent in the gusts. I have stuffed the lower spreader and adjusted the bridle to bring the nose forwards and will see if it is a little gentler the next time the winds are strong. But it is scary to see the physical effort others make in controlling these kites. ...This is one of the main reasons we fly QPros for pairs work, less pull. - Even with the standards, with wind brakes and weights (it must be what the 40 and 60 grams in the centre tee mounted weight set were really designed for - rather than tricking) - they are controllable and flyable up to at least 30mph gusts all day long. Looking forward to seeing what the vented versions can do. - Another kite that impressed us for its light pull in strong winds was the Eolo Over. - Saw this doing team work with just a single 6inch nappy brake (team Close Encounters), had a go for a few minutes in 26mph, and were so impressed that we bought one. Compared with Furys, QPros and WidowMakers, it was cheap. However we fear that because it uses Dynamic spars, there may be replacement ferrule and spar supply problems, similar to those Gary is experiencing with the Hypnotist. (And after 90 minutes of flying the Over all the standoffs came loose - but nothing glue couldn't fix.) And we are unsure of where we could buy a second in the UK. - And one potential inconvenience with the Over - the leading edges do not fold down at their centres - so the kite is quite long when packed away. Furys are currently the most popular kites over here for team work. - Certainly look the most snappy and precise tracking. The second most popular (which we haven't personally tried) are Air Dynamics T4s. - Suppose you won't see them down under. Don't look anything like as precise as a Fury, or a QPro. Don't pull quite as hard as a Fury.

Thank you for the warm welcome. ....Actually, I have been monitoring the site for a couple of months now, since you invited me. .....And I feel a right t**t for getting a key fact in my first ever post wrong. (Something I thought I knew for a couple of years - but Promethius's correction and a followup search of the internet put me right :blush:) Well, when you figure it out, perhaps you can explain it to the rest of us.

Sorry, I stand corrected. Wonder where I got the idea that it was the Widowmaker from? - Will have to investigate. Interesting that Air Rex appear to be going over to Fury .95s for 2009 (according to their website). Wonder what the story is, or was the sponsorship deal too good to refuse?

...Have a look at www.skyburner.com . The Widowmaker is essentially a Widow but with PT and Black Diamond spars and an Icarex sail. Think that a team of them won the World Championships a year or two after Team Cutting Edge with their Prism QPros won. One has been slowly doing the rounds within the UK kite community, and, as it is unfashionable over here, people are surprised by its performance and trickability.