2008 Model Kites Are Expensive! ? ! ?

[Jon]

Hey Steve earlier in this discussion you mentioned arm twisting and what people really pay for kites.

How does this work? I've noticed myself that the price drops on most things the minute you pick up the phone. Obviously this must be factored in and you dont lose money on each sale.

I wonder whether if you just advertise that price on your site then put an asterix or NFPD (No further price discount) you might sell more gear and people who have already decided the price is too high may take another look when they know what you really want for it.

Just a thought

I know how you feel Dan, because of my addiction I am time poor and do shop online quite a bit, and often just pay what is advertised on the site, especially for lower priced things say under $150

I would like to have the freedom to put the prices I would like to sell product for on my site, but there are so many reasons why I cannot, the least of which is that we are generally seen as the leading kite website in Australia, and advertising a low price just gives our competition the ability to beat us by a few bucks without providing all the other stuff that keeps people buying from us, like the extensive stockholding, service, trained and intelligent staff, extensive opening hours etc.

Industry politics are rife, no different to any industry in that regard though, and we just cannot swim against the current, so we go with the flow on advertised prices.

We do like to give customers a good deal, and they can always talk to the staff about price, we will match any competititors price, on any product we stock or sell, always have and will.

[Baggsy]

as i seem to be getting calls from kite distributors quite a bit lately (not sure why)... i am privileged to see the real costs ..not all kite labels have massive markups and some are just too hard to make any money out of in the retail world. (i do undersatnd your position steve)

and yes some kite brands are just CHEAP CRAP .. but i have to say (my personal opinion) that the kite designers in Australia are as good as the high manufactures around the world ..

One final thing ..Even the big kite manufacturers get it wrong some times and that statement is from personal experience ..not just hearsay.

[toeside]

as brands and manufacturs get bigger so do their prices. they start cheap then each year get more expensive.

toeside

[the Truth]

whoa whats with this Joel guy pimping an unheard of product just to prove Steve somehow wrong? where is a moderator when you need one?

Steve has put the facts of life about kiting up fairly straight and the best he can do is come up whith a lamo comback like that.

Generally you get what you pay for (hope you support some local), I know the times I appreciate the quality throughout- when something turns nasty-that top 5% of conditions that spell trouble if you experience gear failure, misbehaviour or what ever issues.

Sure most of the bigger more expensive gear Companies have had some lemons, but they generally support their kites

This can also give you a confidence to try something because you ain't gonna have issues if it does go wrong.

Sure a new offer comming out below a pricepoint is interesting but probably an introductory gimmick to gain a foothold in a crowded market, if a certain acceptable quality is kept even Best has found out the realities of this.

Have seen this argument many times, have a look at any market and the base model cost has been stable, yet performance and quality has risen considerably

For last 10 or more years the price for a shithot but computer has been around $2000, sure you can pay less and you can pay double, what has changed?

Has making these products somehow magically got easier and higher tech?

The cost of being in a sport such as kiting can be measured and how much you justify to spend is your own personal issue.

Since kiting began you can do it on 2 kites and a board, or 2 boards and a kite, figuire on 2 seasons enjoyment from a kite -after 3 seasons you have to limit its use, sell it or give it away- if it is still safe.

Boards will last longer or shorter, but a great board is worth keeping until it breaks.

The more you spend intelligently can give you that little extra on days when ya woodda missed it, have laughed at many.

luv the sport luv the ride

luv

istt

[.Joel]

whoa whats with this Joel guy pimping an unheard of product just to prove Steve somehow wrong? where is a moderator when you need one?

Hardly pimping mate, I didn't even mention the brand Still waiting too see the marketing "jazz" in the magazines too see if this does materialize. The brand is not unheard of, but definitely not up too the standard of your Ozone and Naish. You know we are allowed to talk about other brands aside from what is sold by our sponsors on this forum ?

Steve has put the facts of life about kiting up fairly straight and the best he can do is come up whith a lamo comback like that.

Not sure who you are aiming that one at, me or others in the topic. However Steve's facts are based on Steve's experience. There are two main trains of thought in this industry.

A) We sell "quality" kites - IE: price isn't too important

We sell the "cheapest and best" kites

A) is good, until the markup on the kite out speaks the quality. Not everyone sells at RRP, I should know this, have seen enough stock price lists here too know the wholesale pricing on a range of kites when asked about markups on new kites coming out. And asked my "opinion" on the pricing.

Some manufacturers set the RRP, others "advise" it but do not hold you too it. Most of the brands Steve stocks are fixed RRP, and this means he gets in shite if he changes this. On the plus side it does mean that Steve stays in business, as he doesn't get "joe bob beach kite seller" roll up in his minivan down the beach and start selling the kites $400 less then what Steve has them for. Because if this is allowed too happen then it is only a matter of time before "joe dow beach kite seller" rolls up in his minibus and undercuts joebob... and so on.

Just because a brand is big does not mean that their warranty will always be as good. A number of people have been crapped off by North and the bladder problems on the rhinos. I would class North as one of the leading kite manufacturers.

This model can and can't work. If you mix a range of cheaper kites in with your mix of leading brands it will work for you. You will be able to nab a few of the people at the cheaper end of the market on their first purchase, and they may move up a little in the spending bracket when in the shop. However on its own it is a problem.

Did you know BEST was refloated from going bust ? I didn't know this until last week when speaking to Steve. Makes you scratch your head and wonder what the real position of kite manufacturers is ?

Anyway...

A number of new too the scene, smaller kite brands, or single importers run under the B model initially. They do this to get sales. Seriously think about it, are you going to spend $2000 on a known kite or unknown kite. If the unknown was $1000 you *may* consider looking at the brochure for 20 seconds atleast before making your decision. It is this 20 seconds that they play on, the 20 seconds of doubt. If a few people make the $1000 purchase then so far it is one more of their brand of kite on a beach. Initially a profit or a loss is not the main factor, kites market themselves too a degree. So the more out there the more marketing.

Now here's where it goes belly up. After the initial season or two, they need to start making some real moulah for it too be viable. You don't think these guys import the kites because they are good guys do you ? The point of every business is the gold coin. The more gold coins the better. It doesn't matter if you are selling tyres for cars, or wheels for toy trucks, it doesn't matter if you are selling a single string diamond kite, or a 5 line depower. This isn't too say the guys in the shops are bad guys, but it is the reality of every business. For some, and i'm not going to categorize who and who isn't. But for some they will push the industry, aid it in growth, as this aids their sales. So they win and we win out of it. The more they push the industry, the more events we get, more choice, and in turn they get more sales. Others however will not push, aid or fertilize the industry. They will leech, suck and rape for a better word the industry.

This is where the "cheapest is best" option usually fails. It fails because they now need to get turnover like it's a mcdonalds store. If the kites aren't on the griller, and going out the window every 32 seconds, then there aren't enough gold coins. So too make up for this, over time the prices increase too increase margin. How long before the cost of a meal isn't that far off the cost of a proper resteraunt meal ? Same with the kites.

How long before you "cheap" kites start to be priced that the more expensive kites are within considerable reach.

This point is usually make or break. Initially the "cheaper brands" weren't too worried as overheads were low, R&D was cheap as they could always be a season behind. However as the brand grows people expect more, so then if you are going to put your prices at the level the leading brands have, you are going to have to do leading R&D. Which not only costs money (the concept that good R&D is only done by large companies is BS), but it also costs time. Time is more the killer then the cost of the R&D. Because you can't buy trains of thought, and Time is Money.

Naish are gambling that this new helix is the way forward for R&D. If it is, then the other companies will loose a little bit of market share, a quarter or a half percent each due too people believing in this new technology a season before the other competitors get it out into production.

Walk into CSIRO anywhere in Australia and get a feel of the atmosphere there. Scientists doing research, casual and reserved.

Curious, how many people do you believe do R&D on a kite ? How many of these people do you believe are paid for that R&D ? Asking this just out of interest. Some people have a fair idea, others are surprised by the real result.

Anyway, short end of B is that eventually the prices must increase. Once people stop selling the kites on beaches, and start trying to move the brand into brick and mortar stores, then the shops need the margins too be viable enough for it to pay for its space on the shelf, and their time talking about it over the counter / phone each day between sales. This will either make or break the kites.

There are always exceptions too this. Computer industry for example, turnover is so huge (old store i used to manage ran hundreds of thousands of dollars a day counter sales, no that's not a typo), but margin is so small. The ones with the larger turnover offer you crapper service. Simply because they can't afford to spend too much time with you, otherwise what they made on that product becomes a loss.

You could even go too the extent to say that these companies are selling a price, not a product. The price is the commodity, not what you walk out with.

It could be that the next cheap brand is an exception too this rule... It may already be the exception, but for how long ? And during the time it is the exception there is nothing wrong with jumping on board *if* the product is adequate.

Btw The Truth, the questions in here aren't digs at you mate. More for people that read this too ask themselves and do a little research.

Regards,

.Joel

[Steve]

@ Toeside

I've already explained that the real cost of kites , across all brands has fallen over the last ten years. Its a fact, whether you beleive it or not will not change the reality, that we paid over $2000 for Wipika 8.5 Classics and Naish R3.5's when they were first available several years ago, now we pay a similar or lower price for a far better and safer kite, and with inflation running at around 2-3% average over that time, we are now paying in comparison, far less.

Your pay has risen more in this time frame, yet margins for everyone in the industry have shrunk, its just natural competition, 50+ inflatable kite brands is approx 35 too many.

Baggsy

I agree, you mostly get what you pay for in life, everyone can make mistakes, but the bigger companies do have more resources and more to lose if they do not take care of hard won customers.

Truth

Thanks for the support.

Joel

I think you have an unrealistic view of what is required to run a niche business, like a kiteshop. Nothing personal in that. North had some issues with their kites this year, and yeah it was handled badly - some of which was out of their control - but they are onto it now. Bigger brands do that.

The Kitepower model is to stock quality FLYING, and constructed kites over a broad price range, we all fly kites here and will not stock rubbish, no matter how cheap it is.

The kites Joel referred to are rubbish, they are a rebirthed older model, the business model is to sell off the beach through inexperienced retailers, it will not last, it just makes it harder for legit retailers - the ones who support the industry and the sport - thats where I conflict with you, Joel, for promoting those cheap arse brands that only rape the industry for the gold coins as you put it. Do we really need to be promoting them?

Not sure where that deleted reply went to, I posted under the shop name that Jon uses, and wanted my reply to be my own, must have been distracted and not reposted it?

[the Truth]

you want the truth Joel, you can't handle the truth!

You speak of gold and quality like it flows through the industry showering Porshes and virgins to the unrightous , Maybe you should take a turn on the wall and see how it flows to you .

You say you have seen a so-called price list,, implying that there is a huge margin somewhere then go off on a long involved rant that has some relevance but does not change your general thrust of (see title" drop a 'this is under $1000' (maybe not pimipng -antipimping- you don't have to use any facts or realities for that) for good measure.

this is wasting too much of everyones time buy a kite cheap or expensive go use it and then at the end of it's service bury it and lament it's passing reminising the fact that for the same money you can now buy one twice as good.

luv

istt

[.Joel]

Is that the best you can come up with ? Seriously ?

Come back when your argument holds a little water. You had a whinge at my response, so I gave you a full response. Unknot your knickers.

Regards,

.Joel

[.Joel]

The Kitepower model is to stock quality FLYING, and constructed kites over a broad price range, we all fly kites here and will not stock rubbish, no matter how cheap it is.

I think I re-enforced that somewhere in my dribble.

The kites Joel referred to are rubbish, they are a rebirthed older model, the business model is to sell off the beach through inexperienced retailers, it will not last, it just makes it harder for legit retailers - the ones who support the industry and the sport - thats where I conflict with you, Joel, for promoting those cheap arse brands that only rape the industry for the gold coins as you put it. Do we really need to be promoting them?

Actually Steve, I wasn't promoting them. Rather you made a question and I simply responded to it clearly showing that you can purchase a kite complete under XXX amount of dollars. Sorry but I don't limit my responses to the kites KP stock on their walls when answering your questions. You sell great kites Steve, but this does not change the fact that I answered your question.

Lets just take a closer look...

Wow baggsy new 2007/08 bow kites over 10M complete for $1000?

What brand?

Could they possibly compare in quality and performance to a naish Helix?

Doubt it, mainly because I don't know of any kite that sells for $1000 complete?

You asked the question, you got an answer from both Baggsy and I. Clearly you don't like the answer, so you and The Truth have tried to label it as "pimping" or "promoting" these other brands.

Careful what you wish for bla bla bla..... and the rest of it.

Regards,

.Joel

[Steve]

Hi Joel

You jumped in with that info about the $xxxx kite, I did not ask you any questions about it.

My statement, answering my own question, was that it is not possible to get a decent kite for $xxxx stands unanswered.

I know the brand you are referring too, they are shite, and are actually just a rebadged version of an older model, with inferior lines, and safety, as well as very poor construction.

You get what you pay for, lots of superseded (name branded) stock bargains out there.

[.Joel]

My apologies Steve, you are 100% correct. You didn't ask me at all, you asked Baggsy. My mistake, apologies again.

@Baggsy,

Steve is right, he didn't ask me, he clearly asked you. Take a look at this page: http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4477

Mr G if you could please copy, paste and post my response that would be fantastic.

I'm off to work.

Regards,

.Joel

[sinbad]

Ok what about the RRP of some of the $1500.00 -$1600 kites (approx 12m range) which you will get for less in the shops. there are a few about and more comming in to the country are they shite as well ?

I won't mention brand names, incase i get accused of pimping.

[Steve]

Ok what about the RRP of some of the $1500.00 -$1600 kites (approx 12m range) which you will get for less in the shops. there are a few about and more comming in to the country are they shite as well ?

I won't mention brand names, incase i get accused of pimping.

Some are, some are not Sinbad, but $1500-$1600 is around about the money line that defines quality, well researched, higher performance, more safe, designs.

Of course it is possible to get a decent, superseeded brand name kite for around $1200 too. Plenty of good stuff around, even less $$$$ for some excellent 5 line c kites!!

[out there]

Some are, some are not Sinbad, but $1500-$1600 is around about the money line that defines quality, well researched, higher performance, more safe, designs.

Of course it is possible to get a decent, superseeded brand name kite for around $1200 too. Plenty of good stuff around, even less $$$$ for some excellent 5 line c kites!!

Or of course you might even be able to get a current model kite 12m BOW kite complEte from tHe manufacturer of one of the few 'fully licensed' (royalty paying) bow kites, in fact they might even be from the manufacturer of the ONLY bow kite manufacturer to win a round of the PKRA world titles EVER! (so the flying ability is not in question)

These same kites might even be from the same designer of the kites which started all of this budget stuff, the desiner of the Yarga and the Nemesis. (so the design track record is not in question)

These kites would also no doubt come out the same doors which dispatch most of the Kites in the world;) (so the quality is the same as most other brands on the market)

[Steve]

Of course it might just be a cheapo and nasty rehash of a previous design from that manufacturer too?

Is the cheapy being referred to here actually a licensed Bow design, or a non licenced and infringing hybrid design?

Something designed just to pull in the unwary new kiter?

That round of the PKRA is clouded in controversy over the judging isn't it?

There are a few factories making the majority of kites, a couple are very good, and one is particularly bad, which one does the super cheapy come from I wonder?

You might want to check the history of the designer Peter Stiewe, before you make any radical claims?

You might be the importer of that brand too?

[out there]

Is the cheapy being referred to here actually a licensed Bow design, or a non licenced and infringing hybrid design?

They're on the list at www.bowkite.com but then so are Tekky and I know these kites aren't exactly a big name.

These BOW kites have a Certificate of Authenticity sewn on.

But judging from the list aren't 60% of the brands in ALL kite shops in Australia non licenced and infringing?

Isn't that a bit like selling pirated DVDs?

There are a few factories making the majority of kites, a couple are very good, and one is particularly bad, which one does the super cheapy come from I wonder?

Several of your brands would no doubt be rolling out of the same factory and several of those on the Licensed bowkite list. You can tell a lot about where a kite originates by it's bar! Interestingly you will see the same bar ends on quite a few kites such as Best, GK, Takoon, EH,.......

You might want to check the history of the designer Peter Stiewe, before you make any radical claims?

I know well about Pete, remember the Hellfish? So if Matt or Mark left Ozone would that mean Ozone didn't design the Instinct or Frenzy? I think the number of other brands continuing to franchise EH designs indicates the ongoing strength of that brand.

You might be the importer of that brand too?

Pehaps I am, but I try to stay out of proclaiming these things. I don't like to try and advertise, only trying to clarify the mud. Pehaps you'd like the distributer to send you one to have a fly and you might be really suprised at how well a LOW PRICE (as opposed to CHEAP) kite can fly.

In response to Joel's comment about Best being Bailed out financially, I'm pretty sure this is largely due to the Hellfish disaster mentioned above.

As a VERY rich property developer once told me when I questioned him about when one of his projects I designed for him in St Kilda sold all of the apartments in 24 hours, I said to him Mike 'they were too cheap if they went that quick' and he replied 'well no one ever went broke taking a profit'......... and even at the prices Best were originally selling they should have been making a profit although rumor has it that they were running at a loss initilly to build the brand. That loss could only have been due to infrastrucure problems and marketing overheads.

[schmik]

hahahaha.... i just read this 'review' on another site:

Description:

The ’08 Waroo is the perfect kite for any rider and any discipline. It turns faster, jumps higher, loops tighter, hangs longer and now chases waves better than ever before.

The ’08 Waroo will outperform both your expectations and the competition. It’s not just the best value for the money out there; it’s simply the best Dacron / rip-stop SLE kite on the market.

Completely redesigned to make it even better than before, the ’08 Waroo will allow you to progress further than you ever imagined, no matter which style of riding you prefe........................

I stopped reading there..... 'perfect kite for any rider, any discipline'. No wonder kiters are getting sick of all this shit.

mike

[Luke]

[Dan OK?]

hahahaha.... i just read this 'review' on another site:

Description:

The ’08 Waroo is the perfect kite for any rider and any discipline. It turns faster, jumps higher, loops tighter, hangs longer and now chases waves better than ever before.

The ’08 Waroo will outperform both your expectations and the competition. It’s not just the best value for the money out there; it’s simply the best Dacron / rip-stop SLE kite on the market.

Completely redesigned to make it even better than before, the ’08 Waroo will allow you to progress further than you ever imagined, no matter which style of riding you prefe........................

I stopped reading there..... 'perfect kite for any rider, any discipline'. No wonder kiters are getting sick of all this shit.

mike

Reason I stopped buying Australian Kiteboarder magazine. Every kite does everything awsomely!

[Baggsy]

well Mr out there, you can mention the fact the EH kites are a fantastic kite , i personally love them and if rumor serves me right, they will be WELL within budget this year as a competitive (and well priced) kite ..

i will be riding my EH beast 12 in the coconet classic comp ( if i have time off from organsing the event) in september 1st in Bowen......unless i the Catapult joker turns up ..

ohh did i mention the joker is WAY under the $1500 mark? as well as the EH BEAST ??

[schmik]

There is something about all of this that really pisses me and many other kiters off, I will try and put my finger on it.

These here are USER forums. There are many of these all over the internet. There are certain F&*kers out there that are taking advantage of this. What pisses us all of is the pimping of kit by those that have a vested interest. These F&*kers log in as average users and 'review' kit for us all. Gee thanks F&*kers!!!

At least some of these people with vested interest do this in an honest and open way. Eg. KP log in as KP or as themselves and show a KP logo. At least KP sponsor this site and other sites. This is at least support of the industry.... or a way to get pimping rights (I'm undesided about that still but it is at least a lot better behaviour than MOST other retailers/importers). I know that I can log into the KP website and see what they stock but maybe they can get a signature image made up with all the logos of the kite brands they sell. I'm not having a go at KP, they are actually one of the good guys....

All the other F&*kers that just pimp their shop or imported gear (as a regular user) need to pull their heads in. They give all 'industry' folk a really bad name. Damn..... not just bad, F(*king Filthy!

As kiters we are really sick of this shit. Now, I know we all tend to sell the gear we ride a bit because we think it is great.... we wouldn't have bought it otherwise but the constant pimping and bullshit reviews and over hyping of the latest kites are just too much.

All this sort of crap makes me want to see more models like BEST (don't shoot me yet!). A factory, a website and the postman! All of their stupid hidden pimping makes me want to not deal with them at all and just 'click'. I have owned some 'best' stuff and it was absolute crap but the retailers/importers are unknowingly turning customers in this direction.....

These forums are the new advertising media... we as consumers know this. So hidden advertisers/pimps FUCK OFF! At least have the balls to do it openly and defend yourself when you cop the inevitable flak.

When was the last time you saw a brand sposored event in Aus? A BBQ, a race meet? That is a serious question.

Anyway that is my rant.

mike

[out there]

Hey Mike, I feel for you. I assume this is aimed at me!

Yeah, I really take advantaage of hiding anonomously on sites (i reckon it was nearly a month since I had last logged in.. I am such a troll.) Unfortunately you would have to be the only person on the site who doesn't know who I am or the brands i import.

My signature is my signature and existed lon before I imported anything so it has kind of stuck, you go onto Seabreeze and you will see my signature is Kite Republic and I have the full sponsor stuff there. My signature here used to also let you know who I was but that got taken away. I try to treat this forum as a USER offering information and normally try not to mention brands

I try not to pimp as it is pointless as all my opsts are so closely monitered that one foot out of line and its pulled anyway and I don't usually bite unless things are getting personal about me or my ways.(and they were). PS. EXACTLY THE SAME APPLIES ON SEABREEZE

I don't advertise here and as such especially try not to be a pimp because of this (I don't really need to pimp as I spend enough on real advertising like in that mag you no longer buy) but I am in a position to offer $1700 kites at $1200 online. Also lets not blow it out of perspective as it is only supposed to be for September, mind you if 200 kites were to move in a month I'd probably keep it going.

I expect I will advertise here on EK but in my opinion that still doesn't give me the right to call the shots or try to badger the site owners that I call the shots just because I pay the money. I expect(know) that this site exists because a lot of guys needed to know stuff and didn't know anywhere else to get that info. It didn't come into existence to make anyone rich but merely to fill an information void.

I wasn't going to make a deal of the $1200 kite thing, I was just going to let it come out in KBMag next week, but it seems to have forced it's own way out anyway. Best are probably not the only ones believing in A factory, a website and the postman!

These forums are the new advertising media... we as consumers know this.

Not for me they aren't, the best advertising media is kites on beaches and runs(read wins) on boards. There would have been kites online at $1200 bucks 12 months ago but then it would have been 'oh they are just cheap crap' but now that so called cheap crap happens to be the only 'bow kite' to have won a round of the world title so I suggest the crap title is now covered and as for quality I know at least 4 of the $2000 BIG brand who ALL had more failures and warranties per/100 kites than the so called cheap crap brand. I say cheap by name not by nature.

Hell I've nearly doubled my posts in a day :-)

[.Joel]

Best are probably not the only ones believing in A factory, a website and the postman!

Spot on John, Dell do the same deal and run education seminars through local institutions.

Regards,

.Joel

[schmik]

Hey Mike, I feel for you. I assume this is aimed at me!

Yeah, I really take advantaage of hiding anonomously on sites (i reckon it was nearly a month since I had last logged in.. I am such a troll.) Unfortunately you would have to be the only person on the site who doesn't know who I am or the brands i import.

out there, this wasn't aimed at you as I didn't know who you are. Are you special or something? Am i supposed to know who you are?

This is aimed at all the pimping f%&kers on all the forums world wide. Most kiters kite because they love it. They don't pursue it as a job because they know that it will suck all the joy out of something that they love. Those that choose to pusue 'the indusrty' as a job have lost the right to be 'one of the boys'. You guys are in it for the gold coin, you have motives. The rest of us just want to kite. I don't want hear about how you like kiting as much as we do... blah blah. This is made even worse by your non-disclosing ways. I think that the time has come where there needs to be a seperate forum for all the 'industry folk' to hang out together.... they can be their own little club. Aimed at all pimping F&%kers not 'out there'.

I try to treat this forum as a USER offering information and normally try not to mention brands

If that is the case then you are doing nothing wrong.

BTW, i have never baught KBmag. For me it is Powerkite mag and Kiteworld. ... and i buy them for the pictures not he articles ]

These forums are the new advertising media... we as consumers know this.

Not for me they aren't, the best advertising media is kites on beaches and runs(read wins) on boards.

[schmik]

Hmmmmm..... maybe that comment about losing the right to be 'one of the boys' is a bit harsh. I guess it only applies to kite stuff. After all the is more to life than kiting.

mike