2008 Model Kites Are Expensive! ? ! ?

[schmik]

I saw a dude inflate one at picnic point on friday.... it was pink. I was leaving so i didn't see it fly but he did say it cost a shade more than $2100 (not sure what size it was).... Damn that is expensive. Not as expensive as some of my flysurfers but a lot for tube. it would want to be good!

mike

[Steve]

G'day Schmik

This point was rasied on another forum and as usual it degenerated into nonsense.

I would just like to point out that when I started selling kitesurfing kites, a 9M Wipika or Naish 2 line death machine was approx $2100, and now several years later, a far more advanced and vastly safer kite, with massive performance advances, costs the same.

Is it really that expensive?

A Benson Deepspace 2 line hand built precision sport kite with a 1.3M wingspan costs arond $450 without lines!!, and a 12M Helix like you saw is only $2100 complete, and if looked after will last several seasons. The cost per kitesurfing session is down to a few dollars, I reckon its one of the cheapest thrills on the planet.

Sure it seems like it might be expensive compared to a football, or a meal, however its a lot more fun I reckon. The reality is that competition in the industry is keeping prices low, Kitepower along with certain brands has driven that low pricing over the last few years in Oz.

Its allowed the sport to grow and young people to enter via used kites, many used C kites are now just a few hundred dollars.

And like you said, look at the price of your Flysurfers! But I still reckon they are good value too!

[schmik]

I think that my comments show what I think of tube kites... I'm sure they are a lot better built than i think they are.

For some reason I thought they had become cheaper. I thought most of it was sub $2k. I just had a look. I lot of the big bow/SLE things are approx $2500. It just surprised me. I though that i was a git for paying for some of the flysurfer stuff. Guess not looks like the tubies need deep pockets too. Lets face it... we are men, we need stuff, like 2 kites and two boards. $2500 + 1500 + 1000 + 650 + wetsuit/helmet etc. Why do we do it? (coz i am already think of only two things... teh last huge jump i pulled and 'weh is my next day off'). And i am worse than this......4 kites, 2 water boards, 1 ATB. At one point it was 5 kites, 3 water boards, 2 ATBs and a buggy. Anyway, this is way off topic and will get locked

This will fix it. How hard can a tube kite (eg Helix) be abused and how long will it last. Lets assume the owner is a newb abd crashing lots.

mike

[Steve]

Lets just agree that since they have not risen in price, that the prices are actually very reasonable, since everything else including incomes has risen.

Durability improves every year. Todays inflato kites are so much tougher and easier to repair than kites even 3-4 years ago.

Brands like Naish, Slingshot, Cabrinha, Flexi, Ozone etc have all constantly improved their products, and focussed on improving rider features too.

I reckon, with moderate use and good care, an inflatable kite will last 2 - 5 years.

However some years there have been major advances in design, like when the first bows appeared, and now to some degree with the Helix/Sigma kites, and people wan tto upgrade and ditch the older kites.

Does not mean the older kites are no good, it just means entry level and low cost kiting is increasingly affordable and accessable.

[Baggsy]

LEI' s can last about 3 years with minimal damage. but most companies will try to sell you a new one every year. and YES $2300 is a lot of money for a kite. there are a lot of lite brands out there and prices range from $1000 for a new bow/SLE ( above 10 meters) right through to well over $2500 . it is upto your personal choice on what you like and who's kite you will want !!

i love Robbies gear and i believe it is value for money.. but i cant afford to buy a new one every year !!

[schmik]

I'm not saying that I don't think it is worth it but it is expensive. You could take up jogging and spent $200 every 6 months on shoes.... or cycling and buy one $3k bike. Trust me... i think it is worth every penny it's just that i am a tight ass. Most of my gear is ex-demo or 2nd hand. 2 kids and a mortgage will do that.

My initial comments were out of surprise... i thought tubes had got cheaper... maybe i have seen too much BEST advertising.

mike

[Steve]

Wow baggsy new 2007/08 bow kites over 10M complete for $1000?

What brand?

Could they possibly compare in quality and performance to a naish Helix?

Doubt it, mainly because I don't know of any kite that sells for $1000 complete?

Schmik, Best are well up towards $2000 for the latest models in 11M plus sizes.

Considering a kite 9 years ago was the same price they are good value, excellent in fact.

A newbie can trash any kite very quickly, even a foil. We had an as new, weeks old Access in for repairs had 7 blown cells, blown from LE to TE!!!

Repair cost $300. Kite was launced in 40 knots in the snow, did n inflate properly (could have had a bridle tangle) bow tied and somehow slammed hard enough or enough times to blow 7 cells, starting from the one 2 cells up from a tip!!!

I have seen inflatos trashed in a few sessions, most newbies get at least 2 seasons before upgrading, but htey sell the old kite, so 3-5 is a good guess.

[Dan OK?]

The guys Im watching on DVD, tearing it up doing the latest tricks and blowing my mind by the time we get the videos, the gear they're on is already last years.

So to buy the latest gear you'de have to assume last years gear is suddenly not good enough for you and your abbilities and is holding you back in some way.. Its a Croc!

Some people actually find it an enjoyable part of the sport, researching then owning the latest of everything. The wow factor. "Hey that guys got the new Sling Shot Upyougo" Thats great and more power to them.

Me well by the time I get a kite its been well and truely tested and reviewed by everyone else. I even get to give one a go on the beach first. Then when I get it I bought it cheap enough to not have to worry about not dropping the kite for the last hour of every session so it dries out properly.

How many hours of not trying stuff does that waste over your kiting life?

Bottom line, Im a tight arse too. Ill admit it. $2500 is a few weeks wages in most peoples world.

And this years 'upyougo' will never be $1200 better than lastyears!

.

[Steve]

Hang on, each reply has the price of a new kite going up by $100-200, now its $2500 for a 12M kite, thats just not real in todays market.

Most quality, top 5/6 brand name 11/12M kites are in the vicinity of $1900 to $2150, and if you do a bit of arm twisting, you can expect to get them for a bit less, so the real price, a real customer will pay is somewhere around $1700 - $1900, which is reall a decrease over the prices since I started selling inflatable kites 9 years ago.

It is a very competitive market and a good time to be in the sport, there are well over 50 brands worldwide, all competing for a small market, industry insiders estimate that less than 80,000 kitesurfing kites are sold each year, and the market is starting to slow/plateau a bit.

[.Joel]

Steve,

There will be a complete setup for just over $1000 coming out September I believe. It isn't one of the bigger "known" brands, but a brand none the less. The quality isn't up too the Naish and Ozone water kites, but for the price I'd guess you would say it is adequate and attention to construction has been paid to where it is needed.

Regards,

.Joel

[Dan OK?]

Gave up windsurfing after 10 years because the price of doing it just got too much! The equipment got too technical and specialised.

Just gave up snowboarding because it takes 7 hours travel and $200 a day.

I just want to enjoy my days off for as little stress and money as I can!

Both these sports lost me because they costed themselves out of the market for the average guy. (wife and kids).

I hear what your saying Steve, about the price of gear, I just wonder whether pushing the tech of the kites so far each year and calling 2 year old kites redundant or outdated may encourage those of us not made of money to go do something else.

[Baggsy]

Boy Steve, you are SOOOO out of touch in kite brands and prices..... I suggest take a look outside your own shop !

[Luke]

Interesting thread,

When I mention to people that are not into the whole kite thing they think im strange cuz I run around in 3 wheels and picture some silly little paper bag with a few sticks and some string attached to it. Then I mention the kites cost between $1000-2000 and the general reaction is shock.....

Thats when I put it in perspective and think yeah, you are right its a heap of money for a slightly more advanced paper bag, sticks and string, that is humor boys and gals thanks!

Look, anything retail its a mark up of over 200% sure everybody has to make a living, but keep it in perspective when you get a discount the shops (wether kiting are not) they are still making great profit yet you walk away thinking you got a good deal @ 25% off retail.

Most people would have a spit if they knew what a kite was worth out of the factory.... infact don't even ask!

Some can say ahhh thats life deal with it, names, the latest gear, labels and all that s(*&) we can all be paris, or super-size it and do it BETTER than the guys with latest and greatest by using gear that is a couple of years old and running rings around them..... maybe that should be your goal do it better with your 1 year, out of fashion, dated, wrong colors bla bla bla and forget the dude with the merc and the latest kite next to you, its more apparent kite surfing than on land that is for certain.

I have been there, kite surfing is different, I have seen posers kite boarding in long pants...... now tell me that is not a scene queen way to dress, wearing a pair of tracky dacks to make a statement like "yeah dude, I don't hit the water"... hmm maybe I should wear a wetsuit just incase I boost into the water on my buggy:)

"oh this one is so much better than last years" does this mean people are complacent and not progressing in there own ability, and so buying the latest kite makes them feel like they are getting to the next level or is it the shops and factories pushing that mentality?

hmmm but then again, I have never heard my computer and camera gear suppliers say last years gear is S*(& compared to this years..... so maybe the kiting industry is different!

I buy kites for performance, and color, then have to go shopping to find clothes that will match for a photoshoot, humor people lighten up!

Regards

Rocket/Paris (depending on what I am wearing)

p.s $30 for a CD........... the day we can download kites off a torrent website in a self inflating download will be a happy day!

pps. you kite surfers think thats bad, the top of the range land kites set you back over $1800 bucks and you don't even get a pump!

[schmik]

i sometimes think that the big companies are there own worst enemy. Releasing new stuff every year just kills the 2nd hand market. So... you buy a $2k kite and know that in 2 seasons you'd be lucky to sell it for 1/3 of that even if it is not that worn. Sure I support new kites and R&D but unless there is a big break through then the only reason to produce a new model EVERY year is a case of keeping up with the jones. The big companies have to do it to keep up with the other big companies.

I see that prices have stayed roughly the same but other prices (of most things made in china) have dropped. So... the factories have more experienced staff, better production techniques and are producing higher volumes. Yet the price stays up there. Also, there doesn't seem to be any value in beginner gear. You pay $1500-$2000 for a beginner, intermediate or expert model. In most other sports there is a big price difference.

What i'd like to see is a Model X remain for 2 -3 years. Sure release new colours or new safety features but leave it alone until it just HAS to change rather than push so hard to sell the latest model every 12 months. Model X can have mach I, II, III etc. Make the mach I as upgradeable to a mach II as possible etc. Make kites for kiters not for the sake of making a new kite to keep up with all the other kite brands. It looks like the durability of the kites is upto it (i know it is there with foils). Imagine just springing for a new bridle and a 5th line kit and your kite is 90% as good the latest. Tubes are a simpler design surely this concept would work for that too.

my 2c worth.

mike

[Robbo]

it may have already been said but u guys do realise that u dont always need the latest gear to have fun or be good at wat you do?

[Luke]

Robbo I totally agree with that.

An example Schmik which is more evident yet dissapearing also in land kiting is the Flexifoil Blade series, we are still on V4 and its been like that for a couple of years.

But Ozone are now going the way with land kites or releasing a new model each year.

Unfortunatley thats how the world works not just in kiting, look at cars, a new model each year without fail!

rocket

[schmik]

Robbo, i agree. And it's not until very recently that I had gotten the latest of anything.

Rocket, look at cars... most of them are the same every year, only the little plate with the manufacture date changes. EG, how many models of Wrangler have there been? Maybe 10? And that would be in 30 years of making them.

Mike

[Luke]

10..... try 4 I think my model hasn't been restyled in 10 years I think in 1997 they brought out the silly square headlight model for a year then dumped it.

Apart from little refinements inside, Jeep wrangler is just about the only iconic car that can still resemble what it looked like 50 years ago visually rather than just the same badge on the front.

love it or hate it, I like my 50 year old styled jeep and all its nigglies!

But jeep certainly don't say, last years model is C*(& compared to this one!

[Steve]

Boy Steve, you are SOOOO out of touch in kite brands and prices..... I suggest take a look outside your own shop !

G'day Baggsy

No I'm not out of touch mate, but I won't stock poor quality or products that I cannot get back up for from the manufacturer or distributor.

I have the price lists of most brands for sale or about to be for sale in Oz.

There are a lot of inexperienced people entering the kitesurfing retail and distribution markets, we have already seen several budget brands come and just as quickly go, I won't mention brnads, but where does that leave someone with a faulty kite?

Kitepower was the pioneer of better pricing for kisurfing kites in Oz, we introduced Best to this country 3 years ago. When we di that there was a terrible fuss by the other brands, and we are still being "punished" by them 3 years later. However, all of a sudden lots of young people could get into the sport, which was my aim by taking on Best. Used kite prices fell dramatically, overnight, and young people started to get into kitesurfing and the sport had a future and it still looks great.

DanOK

No Need to get new gear evey year - NO WAY! And you can benefit from thos that think they have to - just buy there last years stuff for a fraction of the new price.

Rocket

There is nowhere near that markup in kites, but theris in the fashion industry.

Schmik

I think if you do a bit more research, you will find many things made in China are actually starting to rise in price. I agree that withing certain market segments where competition is particularly fierce prices remin low or stagnant.

I do notice that some items appear to become lower priced, but look closer and almost in every case the quality is degraded too. If the Chinese can make something look similar and do it for less, they do!!

Ask anyone with manufacturing facilities in China or getting product made by Chinese owned factories (the worst)

All the big kitesurfing brands, and most of the new cheapies are made in a few factories, all these factories are generally controlled or run by westeners who supervise the quality and ensure the Chinese do not substitute lower priced and inferior quality materials.

Why do you think Flexi/Ozone/Cabrinha/Naish/Slingshot, etc, etc are such good quality and are consistently good quality?

They have their own staff living in China, supervising or running their own factories.

Quality does cost, so does service, and will be remembered and appreciated long after the cheap thrill of scoring an inferior product. Especially at resale or when something breaks.

In my 32years of retailing and sales experience, the better brands always produce better quality, they invest in more R&D, they bring new ideas with performance benefits to us consumers. The cheaper brands follow, market leaders lead. There will always be people who have to have the latest, for thos of us who don't there is the used market or the clearance section!!!

[Luke]

Ive always stuck with flexi, and ozone, last thing i want to worry bout is quality issues, its worth the extra just for the peace of mind.

[schmik]

You know you can't win Steve. We all bitch about the quality of 'Best' and about the price of the good stuff. hahahaha

I think that there is a general feeling though amongst kiters that is getting a bit sick of the companies pimping sooo much new stuff so often and marketing it as being so much better.

Imagine it "Ozone Instinct 2008 - just a little bit better than the 2007" hahaha

mike

[Luke]

I think all kites should come with a matching T-shirt!

[schmik]

Free advertising for teh kite company. Brand shirts are weird. Actually people are weird.

"excuse me Nike, may I give you $50 and be a walking billboard for you?"

mike

I think all kites should come with a matching T-shirt!

[Luke]

I'll happily wear a kite shop T-shirt and logos on my gear for the right price........

[Dan OK?]

Hey Steve earlier in this discussion you mentioned arm twisting and what people really pay for kites.

How does this work? I've noticed myself that the price drops on most things the minute you pick up the phone. Obviously this must be factored in and you dont lose money on each sale.

I wonder whether if you just advertise that price on your site then put an asterix or NFPD (No further price discount) you might sell more gear and people who have already decided the price is too high may take another look when they know what you really want for it.

Just a thought