Ozone Access size?

[mick]

I've only just got into buggying and all I keep hearing is "depower is the way to go". Finally got to fly my 10m in 8-13mph winds. Jesus does it turn slow. I was having to pull the bar 5 seconds before the planned turn. And it's so easy to forget how powerful it is coz it's not pulling your arms. I was getting cocky doing figure 8's and I should imaging in just 15mph+ winds it could get a bit of a handful very quickly. Still not convinced it's going to help my buggying but purely from an engineering viewpoint I'm really impressed. It only luffed once and even when trying the safeties it was up and flying with no tangles very quickly. Seems to need quite a bit of wind to reverse launch though which I found odd. Still can't get my head around the more power/less speed vs less power/more speed idea so I don't really know when I need to push or pull the bar. Hopefully it'll make more sense in higher winds. I'm hoping I don't need to buy the whole set but I can see where you're coming from. I wanted depower so it'll cover a wide range of wind speeds without keep changing kite but I guess the real coverage of different wind speeds is catered for with each extreme of the gusts and that you still need to put the optimum size up for the average wind speed on any given day.

I absolutely love it but I can see why people still keep a quiver of fixed bridles. It's quite an old one so I think I'll play with it for a while and then see if a shop will do me a deal on a full set of new ones, probably kite only and one bar between them all. I only use one set of handles for all my FB's and despite everyone sneering I find it easier coz you only unwind and wind once during the day and once the lines are laid out I find it much quicker to connect the lines than keep wrapping and unwrapping full length lines. I didn't think this concept would work for depower and I'd have to have a bar for each but the bridles are simpler in many ways because they don't have as many lines and the pulleys don't have as much to get tangled in. And what with Ozone's ingenious numbering system it'll probably be even easier. I'm gonna call the shop tomorrow and get a price to ponder on. God this sport is addictive!

 

Blimey, its hard not to explode reading this lot. In truth, I find nearly all of it, totally rediculous. Where to start. OK

 

" I keep hearing is "depower is the way to go " No you don't. They're talking about land boarding. Only old men and Rawkite buggyers advocate depower. Does it turn slow? Quicker than a bigger old kite I'd say. Doing figure 8s. FFS its a 10 mtre. An engineering viewpoint eh? Bit like a Morris 1000 maybe.

 

"Still can't get my head around the more power/less speed vs less power/more speed idea so I don't really know when I need to push or pull the bar." WTF ??????

 

" then see if a shop will do me a deal on a full set of new ones, probably kite only and one bar between them all" Bigger WTF ????

 

"I only use one set of handles for all my FB's and despite everyone sneering I find it easier coz you only unwind and wind once during the day and once the lines are laid out I find it much quicker to connect the lines than keep wrapping and unwrapping full length lines."

Even more WTF ???? >>http://forum.kitecrowd.com/recreational/kite-packing-competition-196262.html

 

"And what with Ozone's ingenious numbering system it'll probably be even easier." No more please Its late, I'm tired and I feel a barrage of abuse coming back

[mick]

OK Ive calmed down a tad. Its been a long day with a 7.15 start. Ive taken a tranqu and chilled a bit. Most of what OMF wrote is from a noobs perspective and I guess excitement runs away with emotions. Not me, I add. 100% in control.

 

Lets see if I can be kinder. OK. Some buggyers enjoy depower more. These are generally cruisers or freestylers looking for air time without the rush that a big Blade gives. Of course a 10 mtre is going to turn slow. Compared to a 2mtre foil, its a lifetime to rotate. You get used to it. Its a big kite. Its an old kite. Nearly the first generation of the depower with limited everything. I may be wrong but with a depower foil, surely its better to leave the bar connected?

 

A few kiters fly numerous FBs with one set of lines and handles. Of course they do but each or different size kites require different length line and different size handles. Handles from a 2mtre wouldnt turn an 8.5 Blade. Short lines from a small kite wouldnt suit a bigger kite and vice versa.

 

Quicker to change kites? Absolutely NEVER but I guarantee, it won't be long till you are setting up in 30 seconds like most can do. Nothing worse in a blow than trying to sort lines out and attach them.

 

This knowledge has been learned from 12 yrs of arrogance and ignorance while learning to be the flyer I am today.

 

And also. Last night I took possession of a 3 mtre crispy Skykites Predator Mk 1. Now thats a kite.

 

OMF. No offence mate. Take it in good spirit. Enjoy your kiting whatever and however you feel comfortable.

 

BTW. Don't forget, I fly depowers as well so I'm not tunnel visioned to FB. I love depowers but ............ (deleted due to offending the old guys)

[on_my_face]

Well you're certainly not shy about giving your opinion Mick! You seem to have the impression that I'm new to kiting. I'm new to depower and buggying hence my enthusiasm but I've been flying for about 8 or 9 years and as quick as I've got at wrapping a set of lines I still find changing at the canopy end each time much faster if I'm likely to be using several different sizes across a day.

The talk I'm referring to about depower is from the buggiers at the club I've just joined. Most swear by using depower and they're mainly 30-40yr old and the ones that don't all use race kites which I've yet to master. The main appeal for me with depower is the fact I fly inland and their ability to absorb gusts. I get my Blade out and I'm either struggling to get it to launch and when I do a gust comes and pulls me 30m off course.

I've yet to see the benefits I'm promised with depower but I'll enjoy learning their ways and I'll always have my FBs anyway. If I get on with them then I will get a full set but I'd like to try out the Flysurfers before I part with any money coz I've also heard good things about them.

My handles are Prolinks with 250kg lines. More than enough for my Blade and when the wind is fast enough to get my smaller kites out the drag on 250kg lines is unnoticeable.

Your grumble about me not appreciating much difference between sheeted in or out is unfair considering how light the wind was. I did say it'll probably make more sense when it's a stronger wind and again bearing in mind the wind, what the hell is wrong with doing figure 8's? At times the wind dropped so much it was all I could do to keep it in the air and it was a great exercise in learning to fly such a slow turner.

After all your grumbling Mick, mostly about old men which is ironic, I'm still completely unaware what your point is other than you don't seem to like Ozone depowers.

Anyway, I love it and I'm really grateful for everyone's input. Can't wait to fly it some more and look at getting some other sizes. Even tempted to get a Turbo bar now just as a change now and then.

I love getting new toys. If I bought the best available kit in the first place then I wouldn't have had anything before it to make me appreciate it. An M5 is supposed to be a pretty bloody good car but would you be as excited about getting one if your first car was an M3 or a Mondeo! I appreciate my Flexifoils coz I started off on Pansh kites. The same way as I'll appreciate my first Flysurfer by starting with an old Access. Once I've mastered buggying and depower I'll then have race kites to look forward to learning. And I'm pleased you said that depower is only of real benefit to boarders coz the only reason I got a buggy was to learn more about sailing so when I do decide to try boarding again I'll only have to concentrate on balance. Life is all about learning. If we knew it all by time we were 20 then life would get boring very quickly.

Right, now to find an 8m Access next I think :~)

[mick]

I'm sure in the future you'll learn all you need to know from these guys or your new club without any interference from me.

I've removed post 25.

Edited May 1, 2014 by mick

[on_my_face]

You didn't need to remove it Mick and I like your interference..... it's all good banter. I'm just pleased I've finally taken the time to join a forum rather than boring all my non kiting buddies. They're all into extreme sports but I just can't get them to show an interest in kites at all. I just wish there were more kiters where I live coz it's not the same on my own hence my extremely slow learning curve. The club I've joined is nearly 2 hours away so it's not like I'll get to go often enough so I'll feed my fix by arguing with you Mick :~)

[mick]

I know the club you've joined. Incidentally, I have a life time ban from there for dangerous and reckless kiting. Threatening behaviour and foul language. Does that sound like me? haha. The clique didn't like me. After all I did to get them the flying site.

 

I wouldnt say you have a slow learning curve but what I'd say is that 99% of buggyers are in the same situation. We fly inland. Do you not think Ive tried all manners of kites in my flying time? I think I have a pretty good idea what works. My biggest downer on depowers in buggys is the fact that if you're on a small field with other buggys, depowers are too slow to react against small foils. Sure there will be the arguers here who disagree. 12yrs flying on the same field has taught me that I can fly with up to 6 FB flyers.Put one depower up and we're down to 3 max.

 

Inland I think low aspect intermediate kites are better suited. At your new club, I went along with the gaffers son before it was open to the public to assess its potential. He had an array of Razors. Me and my bud had Blade 6.6 mk IIIs. He, as an established buggy racer couldn't get the Razors working at all. The Blades were just ripping about. I have to say that I feel my Mk III Blades are some of the best kites for inland. 40 mph across there was easily achievable.

 

I'm sure making him look a clown was the beginning of my downfall. Like I worry tho.

 

Don't worry about arguing with me. It is all fun and if you ever progress to the kITESURF section, fasten your seat belt. I'm a light weight compared to some of those vindictive nasty gay lords. (All depower mind. No one uses FB on water. Shut up Carol before you say CC)

[tvrgreg]

I love my F/B kites and fly them 95 percent of the time, bought a few cheap depowers last year with an eye on snowkiting, but have had a few sessions in the buggy. the 1st few times with access 10m and my apex 10m i found them very slow to turn compared to a f/b kite, but my mates that are used to them can get them to turm pretty quick, its down to practice, timing and knowing when to pull the bar a bit to get the sweet spot. I am still learning that bit, 10m access is powered at 20mph and anything less will slow the turn rate.

[mick]

All depowers will turn quicker with the bar pushed away. Or alternatively, flown well into their wind range with the depower strap pulled.

Ive found they also go better upwind depowered. Certainly mine have. Saying that I only flew Frenzys foilwise in the buggy. Ive flown my LEIs but found the huge lift well scary. Way more so than my Blades.

Edited May 1, 2014 by mick

[on_my_face]

You do make me chuckle Mick!

So a genuine question...... is it coz my new kite is depower that it turns slow as opposed to it's size having never flown a 10m before? A guy let me have a go on a 14m LEI and I didn't like it purely coz of it's slow turning. I appreciate that I have only flown the 10m in ridiculously low winds and it will get faster but I can see how it'll be a problem when flying with others. I absolutely love my Blade but it's ferocious in the gusts hence why I'm trying depower to absorb said gusts. Is there a way of flying fixed bridles that I'm yet to learn where you can absorb the gusts more using handles? All what's been said would certainly make sense why the bigger depowers are so much cheaper than smaller ones on the used market. I think I'll hold off on getting a full quiver of them for a while.

With your fountain of knowledge Mick, what would you say is the ideal fixed bridle for buggying? My Rages are supposed to be quite good but coz I've only got small sizes I've yet to get out in strong enough wind with them to buggy. Very addictive flying them static. I can put them exactly where I want them every time. Maybe I should have stuck to my original plan of hunting down a 4.7 and 6m.

[tvrgreg]

not all depowers are slow turning, 10m and above low aspect foils are, my venom ll 10m is crazy fast on the turn, too fast for me 1st time i tried it last year, could not get the buggy turned round quick enough as i sent it the other way and boom!! superman straight out the front and broke my heel as i hit the sand as for f/b dealing with gusts some low aspect kites deal with it well, but now i deal with it by strop and harness and let the buggy take the gust and slide. rages are good buggy kites, they can still spank you in high winds, infact small kites scare me more proper powered than the bigger kites i have.

[tvrgreg]

oh and if you want to tame your blade a bit while learning in the buggy fit a triple A kit to it and set it to low lift fast setting, mine flys a treat in 12-15mph without been scary.

[mick]

Pretty well everything Greg has said is bang on. Taking the gust thro your arse is my way of dealing with it. Push your bum harder against the buggy side. Load the inside wheel up with the power. Gradually it may break away but head off slightly down wind to release the load, then load it up again as the gust comes thro. Lower aspect kite pull sideways. Higher aspect racier kites move forward in the window and pull forward more than sideways. Buggying with your Access, in normal conditions the kite will sit nigh on right angles to the buggy, slightly forward of the centre line. Higher aspect kites like race kites sit further forward and the faster you go, the further forward they move. You want adrenaline, try a small Razor in high wind. Deffo one of the most poo inspiring rides I've ever had.

[xtreme playboy]

MICK .................my hero

we so got to meet up , banned for life ! pissing people off , yeah man . ive P off the cricketers, footballers , dog walkers all think they own the field , I pay my taxes.

ok OMF glad you have learnt how to take mick ;-)

the man I speak of talks a lot of sense in all his ramblings and I agree with pretty much all he s said , tvrgreg last Cpl of comments are pretty spot on as well , harness up with the FB s and those rages work fine on Turbo bar if you want a new toy and a different way of flying . sounds like you have some spare ££££

As for using the depower bar , well when the wind is blowing mid range for your access and you are on a run just start powering it up by pulling the bar closer to you see if you notice it power up , this is where I noticed my flysurfer out perform my Ozone , the FS just feels a whole lot smoother and more powerful .

yeah this sport is very addictive , just get those mates to pick up the handles of you blade when its blowing then see if its extreme enough for them !

the quiver you have should cover most conditions now so enjoy .

I quite enjoy flying on my own as I get feed up of trying to get everyone out now, plus it becomes bit of a nightmare with some being numpties not flying in a pattern or with 50m lines !! getting in the way . Mind you I prefer to do most of my hobbies on my own , as ive not got to consider others wishes.

But if you ever want to visit Dorset I would be happy to be your buddy for the day , show you how little I know,

[mick]

Thanks XP. I appreciate the support altho I don't often deserve it. I must admit to giving OMF a real blast last night. It was a tad over the top. so I deleted it.

 

As I said to the OP, just do what you feel comfortable with. Personally I love flying depower BUT not in the buggy. I think, why would I fly a trundling 10 mtre when I can be strapped to a hornet of a kite screaming about. And then theres the packing away.

[on_my_face]

Wow, some really great advice thanks guys now Mick has wound his neck in :~)

@tvrgreg, I do have a strop on my handles but I still like to have the pull on my arms. Like going to the gym only fun. I also like having it on my arms to act as a shock absorber but I totally get the feeling of having a higher centre of gravity attached to the kite. And don't get me wrong, I fucking love sliding sideways with the front at full lock but what I don't like is when I start off on one side of a field and get pulled into the hedges on the other side before I've reached the end. As I'm unable to buggy upwind very well I end up having to tow the buggy back to the other side and I'm just trying to avoid that from happening unless I want it to. I guess after all the advice I'm going to have to take the plunge and learn how to fly race kites to avoid the sideways thing. Great tip about the AAA too, I feel a complete twat for not thinking of that myself.

@Mick, I'm pleased you've explained more about the race kites. I always understood that they fly further forwards but I never knew they go further forward the faster you go. That sounds very appealing. I don't see it as a waste me getting some depowers coz once I finally decide to get back on my board I'll already be familiar with depower and only have to concentrate on balance. Perhaps on that basis I should collect Frenzies instead of Accesses. You won't convince me otherwise about my swapping lines from canopy to canopy though. I like my system and my daughter loves helping me. Since they don't do Razors anymore what race kite would you suggest for beginner and for intermediate?

@playboy, I will make more of a conscious effort to strop in. I always put my harness on regardless but I just get carried away and forget to hook in. I must at least give this Turbo bar of yours a try. I think I'll miss handles but I'll get one and if I don't like it I'll just stick it on eBay. Do you just use your normal lines with it? You don't have to have shorter brake lines or anything? Believe me, I can't even get them into a field to try. They're like me though, you get to a point where you have too many hobbies and you have to avoid temptation at all costs to give the time your current hobbies deserve. I kayak, mountain bike and climb also and until just recently had 3 track bikes too but never enough time to focus on any one thing. Now I just concentrate on stuff I can do with my daughter. She's learning from all my mistakes which is very rewarding and her brain is thirsty for new challenges. I totally get the doing stuff on your own and I'm happy mostly but not every single time. With my kayaking and climbing you pretty much have to buddy up and it is a chore being let down by people but that's when I'll hit the trail centres or find a windy field but now I'm buggying I am finding myself feeling a social outcast running everyone's dogs over hence why I joined a club but I wish I'd joined a forum years ago. And what's with 50m lines? That's insane! Cheers for the invite btw, I may well head down that way this summer as I love the New Forest and you're only down the road from there. Last question, looking at your signature, what's a Flexifoil bike? I'll Google it once I've finished but thought I best ask in case I can't find it. Anyone had a go on those off road inline skates? I'm much better at ice and roller skating than skate boarding so I think I'd get on okay with them but the thought of having them glued to your feet and unable to bale doesn't appeal.

[tvrgreg]

ok turbo bar don't buy new get used one of ebay, they go for about £75 used, and you won't loose any money when you flog it. Race kites inland ermm tricky one some fly alot better than others inland, same again buy a used cheap one just look at my list of kites half of them were £100ish of ebay or this site, u-turn butanes are very good, same with pkd century. both of them are a bit more forgiving than full on newer racekites like vapour, yakusa gt. when flying inland with a racekite use longer lines, 25m lines give you more height with cleaner winds that they need and because longer lines give the kite a bigger window it gives you time to react to wot the kites doing. to be fair i did not start flying racekites untill i started going to the beach with the smoother onshore winds you learn and progress so much quicker. mastering inland flying is a great skill but can be very frustrating while learning. oh i would recomend getting a race kite of 3.5m to 4.5m 1st anything smaller it will be to fast when powered and anything bigger can be tricky to keep in the air on the turns at 1st.

[tvrgreg]

oh just a warning about not flying with a strop and harness when powered up on bigger kites, it only took 3 months for me to develop tennis elbow in both arms flying with just handles and kitekillers and takes over a year to get rid of once using a harness

[mick]

I mainly fly old Predators. They are like SkyTigers of old but are extremely stable but very quick. If someone wants to learn, I put them on my 2mtre Pred. Razors... well Ive posted my views already. My mate bought a 6.8.new. Brought it up the field. First launch bow tie. 2nd launch bow tie. In the bag and sold. A nightmare on a small field. But on a big steady beach. Oh my goodness. I do own a Raptor as well. 4 mtre. Compared to my PKD Buster 4 mtre, its a whole different flying style. I still fold it up on the turns occassionally. Again, pretty useless inland.

 

On the strop side of things. I had a mate who never used a harness inland. He flew Predator MkIIIs and Mk III Blades. He reckoned with the pull more from the front, it didn't trash his arms as much. I was flying Little Devils and Busters and had arms like Bob the builder. The pain in my forearms without a harness was unbearable till I moved to higher profile kites.

 

BUT I still couldnt imagine for one moment, hacking upwind on a big beach without being strapped on.

[xtreme playboy]

oh where do I start so many points to answer.

Tennis elbow ..... yep that's why we harness up

50 m lines don't even go there a mate has and fly's longer lines than most of us just a pain to avoid unless you got 7 mls of beach

turbo bar mmmmm well they go quick secondhand you couldn't part me from mine so why would you sell? If your names mick you would ,as I said marmite thing . message me if you get one , but basically you have to put another knot in the brake leader a good 50mm lower than last knot just a design floor but after that sorted, some lengthen the power lines (pig s tails )

Buggying up wind well its not always possible to go up wind to where you started in one hit , so you have to tack your way back , google sailing tacking & gybe , walk of shame must be avoided.

Race kites .... whatever gave you the idea you will not be pulled sideways?

god they have so much power you be going sideways more , possibly.

Razors I have one a 2.5 it s a beast but I love the skill required to fly it even inland same with my 6.1 U turn Nitro which is quite well behaved if you fly it actively which all race kites require.

Not going to blow my own trumpet now ...ok iam, but I found coming from a paragliding background mastering foils was an easy step because of some basic understanding of theory of flight ,weather and recovery of a bag of washing over your head focuses the mind . Ive just had my first paragliding flight in 5 yrs last week , it felt good , I also mnt bike 2/3 times a week , white water kayak, snowboard and kite buggy bike several times a week , hence my user name as given by my mother I will not say what the wife calls me ...stranger being one and the kids call me by my name not dad. You want to watch soaps? nah life is for living !!

you haven't wasted your money buying a depower far from it , you might though buying a race kite , but hey buy one they are a lot of fun to fly , awesome in nil wind when you freak the public out as they look at you when theres no wind , thinking look at that tw.t , it takes skill to get it up but hey once in the air and moving around you see their jaws drop as my 6.1 is pulling my arms off (static)and when the winds up you better hang on tight I fly mine totally captive ,pulley & carabiner no safety , just grab the bottom of the handles and pull to get off the ride .

kite bike well I will post a pic if I can remember how to , as mick taught me how to post the other day . so here goes

[xtreme playboy]

http://<a href=http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/xtremeplayboy/imagejpg7_zps9c438edd.jpg' alt='imagejpg7_zps9c438edd.jpg'>

[xtreme playboy]

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[xtreme playboy]

<a href=http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/xtremeplayboy/imagejpg4_zpsb5251ae4.jpg' alt='imagejpg4_zpsb5251ae4.jpg'>

[xtreme playboy]

http://<a href=http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/xtremeplayboy/imagejpg7_zps9c438edd.jpg' alt='imagejpg7_zps9c438edd.jpg'>

[tvrgreg]

LOL. yep when i mean longer lines 25m max is fine, most racers fly them on 15m lines, i like 20's on the beach and 25's inland. yes racekites can be a marmite thing but buy a cheap used one and give it a go

[xtreme playboy]

this pic hasn't worked not sure why