Which insurance?

[GaRRy]

Am I correct in saying, that in the BPKA ins, there is a clause stating that at events you are only covered if it is a BPKA event?

 

Nope thats the BKSA

[Kush]

Yay! ... someone in the industry having a look at it and bringing more than speculation and hearsay.

 

BPKA documentation here

 

 

I can't open that pdf at the mo so will look later on.

 

We get things paid quite often if definitions or warranties/conditions are open to question.

 

So it does pay off to read these things very carefully (yes even your Motor/household policies as well ! - I bet no one here has read em !! )

[GHP]

It does say this though:

Quote from policy document:

 

" Other than in respect of extensions 3 and 8 if at the time of any claim there is but for the existence of this Policy there would be any other insurance covering the same legal liability the indemnity will not apply except in respect of any amount beyond that which would have been payable under such other insurance had this Policy not been effected "

 

So does this mean there would be a long fight as to which of the insurers is liable?

[avspider]

Yay! ... someone in the industry having a look at it and bringing more than speculation and hearsay.

 

BPKA documentation here

 

 

I can't open that pdf at the mo so will look later on.

 

We get things paid quite often if definitions or warranties/conditions are open to question.

 

So it does pay off to read these things very carefully (yes even your Motor/household policies as well ! - I bet no one here has read em !! )

 

 

 

I'm on the other end of it, as i work in an accident repair centre. Dealing with customers claiming off of their car ins policies, and 99% do not know what it says

[peterfarrow]

I told you there were grey areas.

 

The BPKA insurance isn't worth the paper its written on, its simply a paperwork exercise as a sort of flag waving to say "i've got insurance". Its fairly safe to say making a claim would be a nightmare if not impossible. Furthermore the £10m liablility is split into Zurich for the upper 5m and Alliance for the lower £5m this means a £6m claim will be split as two claims from two underwriters so good luck!

 

So it short the insurance is a non entity, you're leaving yourself wide open. If someone actually makes a big claim, everyone else is uninsured thereafter as its one event one payout. So if an accident happens at an event and the event continues and there is another accident the second accident will not be covered if the first accident causes a payout, so not only are you totally exposed, you don't actually know that your totally exposed until some time after the event, when you could be being sued.

 

One word summarises this type of insurance : worthless.

 

Its actually a waste of £10.50. You would be better off buying 10 lottery tickets, at least that has a chance of paying out.

 

I am personally working with a a professional group of underwriters to get us all some insurance that covers all activities at almost any conceivable venue.

 

I hope to have it ready for everyone to inspect and comment on fairly soon.

 

Regards

 

Pete

[m4ccam]

That can of worms is turning into a bucket of snakes.

 

Peter I also have bksa as do lots of other people, how does that one compare.

[custheyder]

I told you there were grey areas.

 

The BPKA insurance isn't worth the paper its written on, its simply a paperwork exercise as a sort of flag waving to say "i've got insurance". Its fairly safe to say making a claim would be a nightmare if not impossible. Furthermore the £10m liablility is split into Zurich for the upper 5m and Alliance for the lower £5m this means a £6m claim will be split as two claims from two underwriters so good luck!

 

So it short the insurance is a non entity, you're leaving yourself wide open. If someone actually makes a big claim, everyone else is uninsured thereafter as its one event one payout. So if an accident happens at an event and the event continues and there is another accident the second accident will not be covered if the first accident causes a payout, so not only are you totally exposed, you don't actually know that your totally exposed until some time after the event, when you could be being sued.

 

One word summarises this type of insurance : worthless.

 

Its actually a waste of £10.50. You would be better off buying 10 lottery tickets, at least that has a chance of paying out.

 

I am personally working with a a professional group of underwriters to get us all some insurance that covers all activities at almost any conceivable venue.

 

I hope to have it ready for everyone to inspect and comment on fairly soon.

 

Regards

 

Pete

 

Define "Event".

 

When the insurance talks about an "event" are they talking about a single incident ("in the event of an accident") which is common practice or an organised gathering? If there is a collision between two insured cars only one insurance pays dependant upon liability. Does it specifically define "event" as an organised event such as Atmosphere?

 

Please copy and paste the relevant sections where you believe an incident at an organised event invalidates all insurance for the remainder of the organised event.

[SandMonster]

Insurance information is shared between companies to prevent fraud. If you don't declare the other policy on the form when it specifically asks then they might refuse to pay because you failed to declare the other policy.

 

It's a mine field!

They don't ask (in the case of kite clubs)...

 

& unless you are FSA authorised, you should not be giving insurance advice (maybe you should google 'dual insurance' if you are ).

 

Bear in mind you are not 'buying insurance' you are joining an association that has an insurance policy that covers its members

[SandMonster]

I am personally working with a a professional group of underwriters to get us all some insurance that covers all activities at almost any conceivable venue.

 

I hope to have it ready for everyone to inspect and comment on fairly soon.

 

Regards

 

Pete

Are you FSA authorised?

[custheyder]

Are you FSA authorised?

 

It's not advice, it's my understanding from personal experience. Any problem with open forum discussion, or are we not allowed to discuss anything insurance or financial related without governing body authorisation?

 

If you are FSA authorised, why don't you put the record straight?

 

(Edit: BTW, the FSA has no authority to dictate any terms in the Isle of Man, we have our own authorities.)

[SandMonster]

If you are FSA authorised, why don't you put the record straight?

 

I'm not, which is why I'm refraining from making comments, even though some of what is being said (again! for the 100th time!) is ill-informed at best, if not deliberately missleading.

[custheyder]

...so you would rather let the ill informed and the misleading stand, rather than simple say "I do not believe that is correct." ... thank you.

[Kush]

I have IFC1, 2 and ACII. Take or leave what I say but on a personal level I have BKSA Cover and prefessional level I work in the industry, hence the qual's.

 

The policy is placed with the Insurer by the individual and the Association does not have the cover, they are merely acting like a broker, unless I am mistaken in which case they are failing FSA rules because they do not say this. We the individual are covered but there remains some discrepencies in the wording. The product has 'potentially' been miss-sold to us but needs some further investigation that I will crack on with today and over the wkend.

 

There remains some unanswered questions where we stand with this cover.

 

Event - depends on the definition but does not relate to an accident/incident (claim) - It normally relates to 'approved events' i.e. a BKSA organised event - in which case there's no point the recreational flyer having this policy and again this needs to be checked out by looking at the definitions of the policy wording.

 

There would not be a problem getting monies paid out in the event of a claim, if cover is split between two, the main Insurer would pay then recover from the other their proportion of outlay, and generally it's a TP that would receive payout and therefore should njot really be of concern to the policyholder unless of course the claim is a Personal Accident claim.

 

Lot's of differing opinions about all this, only way to be sure is to check the definitions and also the Exclusions section in the policy wording. Failing that, phone the Insurer direct which I will do if no-one else does as we really do need to clear this up.

[Sparhawk]

Failing that, phone the Insurer direct which I will do if no-one else does as we really do need to clear this up.

 

Go on then. Phone 'em.

 

 

I pretty much guarantee you will have a fella call you back within the hour asking WTF you think youre playing at

[m4ccam]

If you are FSA authorised, why don't you put the record straight?

 

I'm not, which is why I'm refraining from making comments, even though some of what is being said (again! for the 100th time!) is ill-informed at best, if not deliberately missleading.

 

 

That's the reason why this subject keeps coming up! Because we are ill-informed and unless someone in the know sorts this out these ill-informed statements will keep copping up.

 

Well done Kush for trying to clear it up

[SandMonster]

Failing that, phone the Insurer direct which I will do if no-one else does as we really do need to clear this up.

 

Go on then. Phone 'em.

 

 

I pretty much guarantee you will have a fella call you back within the hour asking WTF you think youre playing at

Seems like a pretty good bet... I'll put a tenner on that...better still make it £15...will cover my membership for next year...

[SandMonster]

So it does pay off to read these things very carefully (yes even your Motor/household policies as well ! - I bet no one here has read em !! )

Likewise the application forms & websites of the associations/clubs you choose to join...

[SandMonster]

BTW I'm not saying that if anyone is in insurance & does have expertise in the the field of sports insurance, they shouldn't provide free advice...

 

It's just that we've had so many of these threads over the years & you always get someone popping up from the (frankly dodgy IMO) world of car insurance who doesn't really know the ins & outs of whats been gone over many times before & the thread disintegrates into a slanging match before being deleted by flexi thereby helping no-one:rolleyes:

[carlrm1599968807]

I have rang PERKINS SLADE the company named on my docs (BPKA) and am waiting for a reply via email with regards all the points raised in this post should be interesting if they bother to get back

 

all seems a bit odd though that we should need different insurance for different sites and stuff i thought ONE SPORT ONE INSURANCE as long as you got cover it should not matter or is someone benifiting some where ????

have read that you need insurance from a certain group to fly on public beaches because a group of people form a club and say this is how it is i would have thought the word public gives the game away and as long as one as adequete civil liability cover then if one is allowed to fly then anyone with said cover is or could this be seen as a breach of civil liberties i dont really know but i reckon a lot of this seems a little "join my gang or your not playing" i think the word dictatorial springs to mind

[GHP]

Oh Dear, what a large can I seem to have opened. Not intentionally, just wanted some advice !!

 

So, has any-one on here had any cause to claim, from either / any of these insurance providers? If so, did that person have 1 or 2 policies?

 

Still sitting here wondering which policy I should get !!

[Kush]

BTW I'm not saying that if anyone is in insurance & does have expertise in the the field of sports insurance, they shouldn't provide free advice...

 

It's just that we've had so many of these threads over the years & you always get someone popping up from the (frankly dodgy IMO) world of car insurance who doesn't really know the ins & outs of whats been gone over many times before & the thread disintegrates into a slanging match before being deleted by flexi thereby helping no-one:rolleyes:

 

 

Agreed SandMonster, I certainly do not want to get in a slanging match.

 

I will get involved if people ask me to. I was only trying to offer a bit of help as I deal with Insurers and all types of claims on a day to day basis - I was merely offering a bit of help.

 

Let me know what response you receive from the Insurer and if I'm asked I will take it further, if need be.

 

My offer if there anyway.

[carlrm1599968807]

OK lets start by saying sandmonster owes me £15 bet lost

 

Right as i said i rang the insurance company and informed them of the how shall we say crap that had been put on here and other forums by the ill advised and they have sent me an email with regards this which should put this to rest.

 

The British Power Kitesports Association (BPKA) and its members, be they clubs or individuals, benefit from a wide range of covers developed especially for sporting associations under Civil Liability policy. The insurance is not a simple Public Liability policy and includes the following covers:

 

Public Liability

Directors and Officers

Libel and Slander

Professional Indemnity

 

As with all other liability insurances arranged, the intention is to provide cover for legal liability arising from the activities of the insured. In this case the members. In practise this means that if you negligently injure someone else, then the policy will indemnify you if they decide to sue for damages.

 

Libel and Slander may not be seen as an obvious inclusion on a sports policy but there have been cases of members having disputes within clubs and anything on posted on websites and their forums or contained in emails could be potentially Libellous, for example. This cover is not included as standard on any insurances labelled “Public Liability”. It is provided for BPKA members.

 

Additionally, we have been careful to include:

• Cover for injuries following negligent advice (not covered by standard Public Liability insurance)

• Directors and Officers cover which is applicable to the Association and Club Officials. The Association & its Clubs are not limited companies and in the eyes of the law are “unincorporated”. In effect this means that the Association & its Clubs have no legal identity and cannot be sued – however their officers and officials (as individuals) can be for negligent decisions made. Unlike standard Public Liability cover, this Civil Liability cover includes protection for Officers and Officials

 

Both Insurance Companies and Insurance Brokers are governed by UK law & are regulated by the Financial Services Authority (http://www.fsa.gov.uk/). This means that if a claim is covered by the policy then by law it must be paid. Additionally we are regulated heavily by the FSA in terms of how the cover is described by our documentation. In short we are legally bound not to mislead. Additionally the FSA visit our offices on regular occasions in order to inspect our files.

 

The BPKA Limit of Indemnity is £10 million ‘any one event’. An ‘event’ refers to a single incidence that gives rise to a claim or potential claim. There may be multiple claims in any one period of insurance. For instance if, in the extremely unlikely occurrence, there were 5 claims in one day the policy would respond to each individual claim with a maximum Limit of Indemnity of £10 million per claim.

 

In this context the term ‘Event’ (i.e. any one event) does not, as has been suggested, refer to any particular gathering, meeting or championship.

 

There are two main reasons for the cover being split between 2 insurers:

 

1) Few insurers are willing to take on more than £5 million of Liability in the event of any single claim. Splitting the risk in this matter is entirely usual.

 

2) Dividing the £10 million Limit of Indemnity between 2 Insurers reduces the risk for each Insurer. Thus lowering the premiums paid by the BPKA and its members.

 

In short the BPKA have been entirely responsible in responding to rising levels of claims payouts by securing a £10 million Limit of Indemnity and holding their insurances with a specialist sports insurance broker, on a wider unique policy, that covers many of the largest Governing Bodies in the UK.

 

Sven Edwards

Sports Liability Broker – Major Accounts

22 May 2009

Perkins Slade Ltd

[custheyder]

Sounds good to me... Sorts out the rubbish about "events".

 

He doesn't mention the position with regard to an insurance with another provider (ie. FED) if an event is covered by both policies.

 

I am reluctant to make any assumptions about claim cost sharing between them.

 

Everything else is clear enough to me, thank you carlrm.

[carlrm1599968807]

no probs what he did say on the phone is that if your policy as a like for like of what the event organisers are saying you have to have then it is a fact that you have the ammount of insurance required

 

imo its them that are saying you have to have what we say again do as we say or your not playing so there!!!!!!!!

[custheyder]

lol ... "event" misunderstanding again. I meant if you have an accident and it is covered by both policies.