Kite buggying across the antartic

[BGKD]

Kite powered Polar exploration is nothing new, Spider traction were one of the early pioneers of kite powered polar expeditions, but they are usually always on skis, and usually towing sleds full of equipment.

Using a buggy style sled does sound like a natural solution, just wonder what disadvantages it would have over skis.... ie why have none of the kite powered skiers ever used a buggy instead of towing a sled.

http://explorersweb.com/polar/news.php?id=19320

[JKS]

Looks funky ..... if Flysurfer were to ever make a buggy, I reckon it would look like this one !!

I wonder if it has a cup holder and a foot warmer

[SoutherlyBuster]

Since they are from the Neatherlands, I suspect the Peter Lynn- Vleger group will be a sponsor.

[jabroni]

Can't wait for the TV series!

[nigel]

These guys have already tried to do an Antarctic trip.

Ice kites was the working title of the expedition I think.

They failed big time.

They wanted to get from the pole outwards, and got about 20kms!!

The weather was against them, and the fact their "buggies" sank in the lose snow.

To put it bluntly kite buggies don't work in the snow.

Peter Lynn has designed the ice sled for this reason.

The front wheel or ski causes the buggy to slow every time it turns, the Aussie crew who have developed the ice sled have put in hundreds of hours in R&D, for any polar expedition this is the vehicle to have.

Good luck to them though.

[BGKD]

but.... does an Ice Sled work on snow?

Actually I'm a little sceptical about this myself, buggy's need pretty good terrain to work effectively boulders and crevices are not great news if your in a buggy, I'm sure a buggy would be a complete no go for the north pole, but not sure what the terrain is like on the south.

Also, I'm not sure how significant a problem with turning would be the buggy is clearly not designed with turning in mind, and I remember reading somewhere the the south pole has significant Katabatic (or is it adiabatic) winds, which if you choose the right route then you are on a constant down wind journey.

[Sand-Yeti]

Just a comment to the unsuccessful attempt to cross from the South Pole to the sea.

The buggies were designed by Kieron Bradley the celebrated F1 designer. They were made of light alloys and weren't cheap.

The buggies were tested on the Diableret glacier close to my home in Switzerland.

The two English guys who attempted the trip made some interesting comments:

1) Although not to be taken lightly, they were shocked about the exaggeration made by earlier polar trekkers on the actual cold.

2) In their reseach on weather patterns etc., they overlooked the altitude & lack of humidity which made the pull on their kites 25% less powerful than at sea level.

They got moving OK in an 8 knot wind following the runway for a few miles. They came off the end and bogged down in soft snow but this was primarily due to the wind dropping right off. They also commented that they were too heavy.

The forecast for about the next month was miserable as they sat in what they called the Pole Hole, which is about 200 miles in diameter windless zone.

It's sad that they didn't get very far and their sponsors probably not too exited about the outcome but we have to give them credit for attempting what could have been an incredible journey.

Pics of the Kieron buggies

Two guesses at who one of the sponsors was:

[nigel]

but.... does an Ice Sled work on snow?

Actually I'm a little sceptical about this myself, buggy's need pretty good terrain to work effectively boulders and crevices are not great news if your in a buggy, I'm sure a buggy would be a complete no go for the north pole, but not sure what the terrain is like on the south.

Also, I'm not sure how significant a problem with turning would be the buggy is clearly not designed with turning in mind, and I remember reading somewhere the the south pole has significant Katabatic (or is it adiabatic) winds, which if you choose the right route then you are on a constant down wind journey.

Work on snow?? see here: http://kitesled.com/live/home/

These boys have more than a few years development in the kite sled.

This is the design they need to follow if they want to finish the trip.

Yes, crevases are common due to the ice sheet moving towards the sea.

You also get the ice compressing, and pressure ridges forming, that can be over a meter high.

Turning causes drag from the front ski. It snow ploughs till you correct the ski.

Try driving your car by steering with the brakes.

Katabitic winds flow from the pole outwards.

It is also down hill all the way to the sea as well.

This was why the kit kat boys chose the route, down hill and wind behind.

But with no wind, they didn't get far.

Talking of weather, it's a combination of wind, and surface conditions to travel fast in these polar environments.

You can get good winds, but soft soggy snow will kill the buggy/sled.

[BGKD]

yeah, a sled does make more sense, didn't I make that comment before?... maybe it was in the echo topic in snow kiting

wasn't sure which way the winds worked, but being unable to turn/tack does put an enormous crimp in a ski-buggy plans

[Clive]

Possibly time to review the progress over the last few years, I've found myself wondering how easy it might be to rig up something usable

Trying to figure out how they've done the front ski.

Progress is being made it would seem.

[nigel]

Front ski still snow-plows, see 1.37 as they come towards the camera.

The tracks indicate more a much wider path for the front, than the side skis.

Back to the original post.

One issue that an ice buggy can't match againts a person on skis, is the fact that the person can lean.

By leaning, you can change the ski into acting like a blade.

On top of this you have one of the best suspension systems around, a set of knees.

Also last I heard, Fast Arie had suffered a huge stack, snow kiting (he's one of the Xxtreme kite boys).

A broken pelvis and a partial paralysed leg, but he's back kiting.

Front ski Clive, I think, is a snow board.

Remember reading about it some where.

Xxtreme had teamed up with a board maker.

[BobM]

My 20 cents worth (with the limited amount of snow experience I have - Therdbo/Perisher is a day-trip for me)

I think that the buggy and its skis/boards are sliding over the ice. The front ski/board is there to provide stability and it does not prticipate in providing any forces during the turn. Looking at the kite during the turn relative to the buggy, then it is the forces of the kite turning the buggy and not the ski. In the deep snow (turns in the distance) there could be some lateral forces, but the the turns on the hard pack have no furrow left behind. Without an edge (provided by leaning the ski), the sideways force must be provided by something else - in this case the kite.

Potentially the rear skis/boards are not horizontal but are slightly cambered to provide a modicum of strightline control.

Even a snow-plough needs an edge!

BobM

[Clive]

I wonder why they haven't made it a combination of a blade and a ski, I note the ski flexes so there's not much of a rigid edge underneath.

I'd like to see a fully functional version produced, like the ice buggy where you can buy a kit to convert your buggy.

I surfed around looking for info as it is now ski season, and my last years effort of snow kiting was...... Well, lots of falling over.

This video was produced prior to Arjen's accident,and as Nigel says, he is now back racing.

Further reasearch ... The Greenland trip was supposed to be may June this year, I'm guessing it didn't happen, and the snowbuggy site has not been updated since the accident.

I'm sure it ( snowbuggy ) can be done, but I think it being an all terrain type vehicle is unrealistic as much as a regular buggy in 4x4 country. It needs reasonably flat snow, just like buggys like beaches.

Unfortunately Australia is not the place to experiment, one needs to live in a country with plenty of snow.

So it's skis and kites for me again this year.

[BobM]

I note the ski flexes so there's not much of a rigid edge underneath.

Looking at downhill skis and snowboards, I would have thought that a rigid edge would be the last thing that you want. What is really needed is a sharp edge to cut into the snow/hardpack. If you look at a ski/board, then you'll notice that the front and rear are wider than the middle - this encourages the ski to form an arc when twisted off the horizontal.

Translating this for the snow buggy then would mean that instead of a front ski that twisted around a vertical axis (equivalent to YAW in an aircraft), you need to move the front ski around a horizontal axis to cause ROLL as well as YAW. This would cause the ski to get up on the edge and to point in the desired direction.

I'm curious now, how do the front skis work on a snowmobile?

BobM

[Clive]

I'm curious now, how do the front skis work on a snowmobile?

BobM

Possibly not a great example as they're not on the ground to often ....... Bwahaha.....

But it does show them clearly.

[BobM]

The few sucessfull changes in direction seem to be achived by changing the CoG rather than direction of the skis

[Clive]

I think the drive being directly behind also makes a great difference, the side on aspect of a kite changes everything.

[nigel]

Snow mobiles still snow-plough.

The design Peter Lynn made for his kite sled (MECS, multi element curved ski) , means no snow-ploughing.

If his system was used as a snow mobile, it would corner as if on rails, no drag when turning.

No sitting down on the job when in the snow Clive.

Snow buggies just don't cut it in the snow vs a board or skis.

Maybe this is more to your liking, if you want to sit down while traversing the Southern continent: http://solardog.com.au/

[Clive]

Now that looks a little more comfy,

Just have to stick with the skis, I've dusted mine off and got them ready, soon as there's enough snow, and it's not in freeze thaw mode ( thaws during the day, turns into hard ice overnight) then I'm away. Should be back into a buggy in October.

[Snowbuggy]

Hi,

Here is a message from Eric "MTwater", the owner, inventor, teamrider of the snowbugggy.

Reading some of the comments I am glad to add some details on the snowbuggy concept.

Please go to http://snowbuggy.nl/technology.php for videos of the various snowbuggy models I made of the last years.

I have developed the latest snowbuggy model based on three snowboards, each with a thin plastic rod/bar/strip/blade screwed underneath.

I just call it the blade.

This blade cuts through the snow and provides resistance against the kite side pulling forces.

The blade is 10 mm wide, 15 mm high and about 1000 mm long (WxHxL).

It is screwed every 50 mm into the snowboard.

In this way the blade remains flexible so when the board flexes because of rough terrain, the blade flexes too.

I have tested the snowbuggy concept for 6 years now and concluded the following :

By far, the latest concept outperforms any other model I have made over the last 6 years.

With three snowboards for float in powder, each blade cuts through the snow but unfortunately causes significant drag. I cannot get the same speed as a normal snowkiter on speedskis. (On of my requirements/goals for a future design is to go faster then anyone on skis, although Arjen did +80 km/hr in the snowbuggy).

Drag is a function of width and height (WxH).

Side force capability is a function of height and length (HxL)

a) reducing the width of each blade will reduce drag, however the blade must have a certain width as to allow screws penetrating through.

The best would be a metal blade of 2-3 mm wide. But metal is not flexible, so the board will not flex anymore.

reducing height will also reduce drag, but at the same time will reduce its capability to withstand kite side forces.

c) the height of the blade can be less when riding on hard packed snow and needs to be more when riding in powder snow.

Obviously, the less height the better as to reduce drag, but not at the expense of withstanding kite side forces.

d) when steering, one would expect severe drag because of the front board turning. Somehow I must conclude this is actually not that bad to my surprise !

This winter (april 2013) I had made a "two-wheeler" concept : only one snowboard at the rear, similiar to the kitebuggy concept.

The idea was to remove the blades (no more drag) and reduce overal weight (no more rear axle, 1 instead of 2 rear snowboards).

By leaning against the kite, the buggy would then tilt so only the edges of the board would cut into the snow. The concept proved to be a disaster : because of the wide snowboard, it is impossible to tilt the buggy...the buggy remains upright because it centre point of gravity is so close to the ground. Once I managed somehow to tilt the buggy, then it became unsteerable, because the front snowboard simply could not be forced to turn with leg/footpower.

With regards to my friend and snowbuggy teammate Arjen : he is already racing again ! Although his missed quite a few races due to his ongoing rehabilitation, he succeeded to qualify for the oncoming European kitebuggy championship, Borkum. Germany in September 2013.

I have tried to find other team members for the Greenland snowbuggy crossing, but have not been succesful so far because of the high costs of organising such an expedition.

If you will require more info on the expedition or the snowbuggy design, just send me a message to eric dot leegwater at gmail dot com.

Please note that one of the snowbuggies is for sale : actually only the rear axle (fits XXtreme Appex) and downtube/frontfork with all snowboards and blades.

I will leave the snowbuggy.nl website in the air until the subscription with the provider will end.

Rgds,

Eric

Rgds.

[DJ_Sylk]

Snowbuggy

How about instead of fixing the blade to the bottom of the ski, insert it through the top like the dagger board on a sailboat or indeed like the dagger on a flysurfer race board. If you used say a metal disk of 150mm diameter you could mount it on a spring so it would retract further on harder surfaces. This will negate the flexing problem as it will only be mounted at its centrepoint, if one of these dosent give you enough side resistance try 2 in line.