ok here we go bit more info on the ravens. I have now moved to the shift system so no more double de power a good system but not for me. After a nasty incident with my 12 m it is no more but before this i did have some chances to really test the kite out. Upwind a bility is ace as well as low wind grunt and speed. The power through the loops is smooth and ferocious just how you want it. Relaunch for me is better than the torch pobably due to the fact it relys on the 5th line more to fly. absaloute winner i rekon i will be on the aliance and torches next