A vibrant debate

[DaveA]

This has been a ripper read

"Donovans dilemma" 'eh, nuff said.

[steve_hobart]

Don't we fly kites for fun guys?

[Jason]

Don't we fly kites for fun guys?

Agreed

Not to mention this is getting boring. Lets not forget that some people looking to get into the sport will be reading this forum and might get the wrong idea. Now lets get back to the fun stuff

[KaoS]

... however you must not have noticed the thousands of people that trudged south along the beach back towards Coolum, to where the Large Single Line kites were tethered. At least 90% of the crowd ended up down there...

... they would just yawn and walk on south so see Craigs stuff and the Chinese guys inflatable creatures...

...I got a massive amount of interest, so did Bob much to the disgust of Mr D, because we flew sport kites with massive tails. Many people came over to fly or watch the big D-Wing...

Okay, I'm going to take a risk and let people think I'm just bragging. In the past 8 years, I've been to festivals in Australia, China, Korea, France, Taiwan, UK, USA, Canada, Indonesia, Thailand, South Africa...and more. I've seen what pleases the crowds, I've seen what bores the crowds. And it is the same the world over, regardless of which country you are in.

Steve's observations are 100% on the money. Crowds flock to the big inflatables, they flock to Ray Bethell, they flock to guys flying a large sport kite with a l-o-n-g tail.

The public pathologically avoid sport kites competitions, be it precision, ballet, freestyle, Innovative, whatever. It's a fact, a painful, but unavoidable fact.

But they don't avoid ALL sport kite flying - otherwise Ray wouldn't still be flying 30 plus festivals per year at the age of 80. Yes, I saw Dave Brittain doing his unicycle riding, bubble blowing, hat removing, Rev stack thing back in about 1996 (hell Steve, are we that old?) and it was the very next week I went and bought a Rev.

Will people flock to see freestyle flying? I seriously doubt it - they don't in the US or France where some of the world's best exponents fly.

So what sets Ray, and DB, and Carl Robertshaw, and Lam Hoac (and others) apart from the rest? They ENTERTAIN - and that is not an easy thing to do or learn how to do. Hell, if it was, I wouldn't think the vast majority of buskers in the Mall were crap.

You can't just say "I love freestyle, so we are going to bring it to the masses" and expect success. (I'm sure some of those buskers love guitar playing, but please shut the **** up!)

Steve, and Bob Dawson, and Warren MacIntosh, and Mike Richards, and Neil Taylor aren't old fuddy duddies with their heads stuck in a bygone era. They happen to have been there, seen that, lasted the distance and have great 20/20 hindsight and a huge awareness of kiting today. And they all lasted by having level heads, astute business sense, a passion for kiting and friendly personalities.

Don't dismiss what any of them offer as an opinion. They've seen what works and what doesn't. Unlike others, aren't trying to build a soapbox and they don't pine for the days of yore. They are glad that they experienced them and are happy to share the experience with anyone who cares to listen

Cheers

Kevin

Willunga, S.A.

[Steve]

So bloody well said Kevin!!!!!!!!!!!

And I don't think you are bragging, you are just stating the facts, and I know you have been to all those places, so you are very well qualified, probably more than any real person here, to make your statements.

When it comes down to making freestyle appealing to the masses and making it commercially viable to put on an event, it has to be about giving something first.

It has to be entertaining, otherwise its all about each flyer trying to prove to his peers he is the best, which in reality = boring as batshit!

A couple of years ago Ray Bethell was sponsored to come to Oz by myself and the Kite Factory in Adelaide, I organised his trip, and he stayed with his partner Dolores, at my home. During this time I was graced to be able to spend several days with this amazing and very entertaining deaf man. I learned part of his craft and what makes him tick, and I can tell you that Rays focus is on entertaining people, his glory is secondary. Sure he loves the glory, but what makes him stand out from claimers is that he is 110% focussed on entertaining people, and giving good values to his sponsors too. Ray is a walking example of a man who has learned one of Life's great lessons, give first, get second. Thats why Ray will be at the flying field helping out other kite flyers even when he cannot do his routine, he is usually first on the flying field and last to leave.

People love Ray, because Ray loves people, however Ray is no fool and can see through BS quicker than anyone I know and will call a spade a spade real fast. Sometimes he takes the piss on someone and they don't even realise because they have their head too far up their own ass to notice.

Strange things happened at Coolum. Bob Dawson, Warren Macintosh, myself, were all ignored and relegated to the bottom downwind end of the flying field, none of us were invited into the mega fly, yet between us we were the most experienced dual line kiters in Australia, one has to wonder why eh? None of us could give a damn though, we were so happy to be together flying kites together again.

Weird, things happened on the flying field, and it was boring thats what happens when egos use arenas to promote themselves or try to exlcude others for fear they may take some limelight away.

Anyway I am sure Noel and his team will carry on with the Festival, and they will be even less inclined to devote much time and resources to the ego demands of "freestylers", because they already know what makes a Festival a success.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

[Two Hands]

Hey Guys,

Thanks very much for your input on this, a very interesting read Look, I'm not so worried about the 'history clashes' TBH, we're all grownups and I think it shows that we have some passion in the house, hey thats good in my books... I'm sorry that I, as a new guy to the sport, naively dragged it all up; to a degree... On the other hand, it gives us a little insight into how complex it is to not only run a kite festival, but try to keep everyone happy at the same time. All with their different requirements.

So as I'm reading this, we (the freestylers) are considered by at least 50% of the 'kite community' as the 'young, rude, arrogant, badly dressed, ugly cousin radicals' of that there community. OK, Interesting

But in defense the other 50% look at us as (and may well be an 'us' as well) as the wayward rebellious 'creative' child.

OK, so those 2 perspectives are well covered, not to rare a split in any of the display sports i.e Skateboarding, skiing, snowboarding, surfing, etc... Am I just seeing a New School vs Old School debate? And if it is then all is not lost Because all this means is that some reorganizing might need to be, at least considered...

Now one thing that I personally want to state 'for the record'... I can't believe than anyone who has seen good freestyle is ever bored by it!, not for the first 3 mins at least. I personally think it looks amazing! Now I've also shown it to a wider non kiting audience and most say that it has appeal...

Last year I naively volunteered a group of 'Freestylers' to put on a demo of Freestyle Flying at the Rosebud kite festival... Not a comp, just a fly.

To make 2 observations from it, 1... They, the event organizers, liked what they saw and how we behaved, and from the comments they received from the General Non Kiting Community (GNKC), they inviting us back again. No real biggy as it's a small but growing kite event, but it did give me a chance to see how it was (freestyle) taken by the GNKC.

2... From my observation of the GNKC at Rosebud (and I was watching), I think what could be said is that they 'got it', we had a variety of skill levels on show and the GNKC knew what was good and what was not... They 'Ooohh'd and arhhh'd' at all the right times and quite a few stopped to watch for quite a while. There was no time in which the flyers were not being watched, and in the mean time there was plenty of positive chat going on between the flyers and the GNKC.

I also flew for a little while at the north end of Coolum last year, I didn't mind so much, the wind was nice enough. Yes true, you did end up feeling like there was no festival on as your back was to it But then I'm generally concentrating on the kite when I fly so I probably wouldn't have appreciated it anyway

As a 'how to' demo it, I'm hoping someone will pipe up with a good preexisting framework. But personally I don't think a comp is of much use just yet, I think we need more participants first, but why not a little timed 'battling' Krumping style ...? winning or loosing isn't the goal at this stage so scoring is not compulsory in my mind. but it does keeps the pilots rotating, thus participating, and the crowd interested. I see it more as a PR exercise I suppose for the time being.

Thoughts, opinions, flames?

TH

[mojo]

Strange things happened at Coolum. Bob Dawson, Warren Macintosh, myself, were all ignored and relegated to the bottom downwind end of the flying field, none of us were invited into the mega fly, yet between us we were the most experienced dual line kiters in Australia, one has to wonder why eh?

Steve

If you don't know that answer to that one, it'll be an easy matter to fill you in on the goss.

I still don't really get it, I can't fly stunt kites, totally useless, but I'm interested in the history of the genre, but not whats been done overseas. My way of thinking is that the public are pretty well starved of of anything here in Aus, and I'm interested in legitimate knowledge of what has been done here in the past, rather than err, the heresay of late.

All I can go on is what I've seen is that the general public, they enjoy seeing sports kites fly, which is in my experiences is generally men and young lads from about 10 yrs up, there's a few women and girls but they're pretty rare.

They ooh and aah over the ballet, but enjoy seeing a rev hover and tickle someone under the chin, most of em have half a brain and can actually tell if a floating kite has a purpose behind it.

Anyone with useless shocking skills like me, can get an audience (for at least a few minutes anyway) flying on a beach anywhere.

So yes, please tell the history, here at least.

[mojo]

oh ps, be sure to come and say hi and make yourselves known.

[KaoS]

... we (the freestylers) are considered by at least 50% of the 'kite community' as the 'young, rude, arrogant, badly dressed, ugly cousin radicals' of that there community.

No, I really don't think that's what any of the real kite community thinks.

Us oldies might not be as good at freestyle as you "young...badly dressed" flyers, but believe me, we enjoy it just as much. (even if we do it with our T-shirts tucked in)

Am I just seeing a New School vs Old School debate?

More like a "Will this set the world on fire?" vs "Don't bust yourself, we've tried a lot of similar things..." debate.

Now one thing that I personally want to state 'for the record'... I can't believe than anyone who has seen good freestyle is ever bored by it!, not for the first 3 mins at least. I personally think it looks amazing!

Okay, this is where I REALLY put my neck on the block. The part I agree with is "GOOD FREESTYLE". Personally I think most freestyle is not done well. (...and here's the part where you'll call me a blasphemer... ) For example, I only enjoy watching two of the flyers on the Trick or Treat DVD. I think all of the flyers on the DVD are very gifted, competent flyers, but only two of them entertain me. Now, I'm not saying my opinion is the only valid one, I'm just pointing out that we all have different opinions and tastes so it might not be so easy to convince the festival public.

Last year I naively volunteered a group of 'Freestylers' to put on a demo of Freestyle Flying at the Rosebud kite festival... Not a comp, just a fly.

To make 2 observations from it, 1... They, the event organizers, liked what they saw and how we behaved, and from the comments they received from the General Non Kiting Community (GNKC), they inviting us back again.

TH

Let us know when it will be on again. If nothing else clashes, I'm always willing buy a cheap plane ticket and come over to help

Kevin

Willunga S.A.

[DaveA]

I dont know the first thing about organising a festival, so wont try to tell anyone what to do, but to add my 2 cents i really think that for the general public to be interested in a two line kite display put on at a festival it must be of an extremely high quality.

Im talking the calibre of a Richard Debray, Tim Benson, Richard (whatsisname from R-Sky) etc.

Its hard to watch that standard of flying and not at least be slightly impressed, even for a Billy Barbecue type just walking past.

Anything less than than that will look like shite to someone who is not familiar with sport kites.

Average garden variety flyers wont impress anyone im afraid, and thats most of us im sure.

I got into sport kites while holidaying in Pt Fairy a few years back, Tim from the local kite shop had free fly sessions every afternoon at the local park, and it was packed !

Kids and adults trying their hand at two line kites for the first time, with Tim just handing out kites from the back of his car to anyone who wanted a crack.

I went back 3 days running and then subsequently buying my first kite from him.

Great marketing.

This type of free fly session with a small team of people making sure everyone has the kites set up ok, helping people launch etc. along with the type of display mentioned above, to show what kites can really do, could only help build interest.

[JKS]

So the question is .... how do you put the 'style' back into Freestyle ?

(Gee I hope thats the question I already have 1 blood nose)

[Two Hands]

Its hard to watch that standard of flying and not at least be slightly impressed, even for a Billy Barbecue type just walking past.

Anything less than than that will look like shite to someone who is not familiar with sport kites.

Average garden variety flyers wont impress anyone im afraid, and thats most of us im sure.

I thinks there's a middle ground, What was seen at Coolum in the main area was less than the best we have, and I'm thinking by quite a bit (no offense meant), but it was still able to hold an audience reasonably well...I can think of 2-3 flyers in AUS that are better, and I here rumor there's a few more.

This type of free fly session with a small team of people making sure everyone has the kites set up ok, helping people launch etc. along with the type of display mentioned above, to show what kites can really do, could only help build interest.

I think thats a great idea, doesn't need to go all day, sounds like just the sort of thing you'd find at a kite festival. Cool

Okay, this is where I REALLY put my neck on the block. The part I agree with is "GOOD FREESTYLE". Personally I think most freestyle is not done well. (...and here's the part where you'll call me a blasphemer... ) For example, I only enjoy watching two of the flyers on the Trick or Treat DVD. I think all of the flyers on the DVD are very gifted, competent flyers, but only two of them entertain me. Now, I'm not saying my opinion is the only valid one, I'm just pointing out that we all have different opinions and tastes so it might not be so easy to convince the festival public.

Totally agree, horses for courses, for sure. I like the fact you can see style in freestyle, I think it's a draw card TBH, same skill levels can translate very differently with the application of various styles, VF is proof of that.

Let us know when it will be on again. If nothing else clashes, I'm always willing buy a cheap plane ticket and come over to help

Kevin

Willunga S.A.

Would be a pleasure!

[spotter]

It is a hard one. I bet I am not the only person here that has had some little old lady/man come past with her grandson and said "the way you fly then is with the sail flat to the wind and always moving forwards." This is an issue that the general public often see with freestyle flying. How do you get around that? Good question.

It is like me watching a game of boules. I might stop to take a quick look at what they are doing but could not watch it for more than a couple of minutes. With anything form of kiting you do, you have to keep doing things that will keep people entertained. At our local spot, we get a lot of people stopping by to have a look at us buggying or landboarding but leave only after a few minutes. If you are doing other things apart from the backwards and forwards, people generally stay longer. I have found the same thing with the rev's.

I agree with what has been said before that it is hard to justify the strict freestyle at any event. Make things exciting and different in what you are doing at the event and people will flock, but to people that know nothing about freestyle flying, one trick really just looks like another and a lot of arms flapping about.

[JKS]

I thinks there's a middle ground, What was seen at Coolum in the main area was less than the best we have, and I'm thinking by quite a bit (no offense meant), but it was still able to hold an audience reasonably well...I can think of 2-3 flyers in AUS that are better, and I here rumor there's a few more.

Another few things that certainly didn't help Coolumn were in the layout. The 'Main Arena' is located on a hairpin corner made all worse (for crowd flow) by the barricaded walkways narrowing causing a bottleneck and the fact that the crowd could only gather on one side .

It was tight and did not flow ...

[JKS]

.................................. double post

[steve_hobart]

My simple thoughts (from a mediocre flyer who has only been flying 3 or 4 years)....is that the emphasis should be on getting members of the public to participate hands on...At the end of the day, my view is that I (and members of the Hobart Crew), try to "reach out" to the public and get them involved, talk to them, give / invite them to some hands on time, rather than just "demonstrate".

For example , last summer at my beach, I was flying most evenings for an hour or so..purely for relaxation and personal challenge (to learn the latest "Randy G" Video trick!). I would often have kids 10, 11, 12 etc - come over and ask a few questions, then the inevitable "can I have a go mister?".

I always had my old tough Quantum set up on the ground ready to go (no I didn't offer my Nirvana or Temptation!) , so I could say straight away to them "here have a go.."

Usually they loved it. I ended up not flying but helping them. The parents would get involved, come and talk to me, thank me. Then as they were about to go ask "where can I get a kite like this and how much is it?" I had a few thrashers which I gave away over the summer to those kids that were serious, or directed them to Briskites and KP with a suggested low entry purchase - but also invited them to catch up again on the beach...

That was successful - they weren't interested in watching me, but flying themselves....

My thought, is that if you want to have some dual line at a festival, sure have a few people flying, but also have a few kites set up ready to handover to participants (with people available to assist them) and get them to experience the rush of delight that we experience every time we fly. You never know, 1 or 2 of them may stick to it and join our dwindling self opinionated, fiercely brand loyal ranks!! - then there may be enough flyers one day to re-introduce comps....

cheers

steve

[mojo]

JKS, poor bub, the main arena, which I guess will stay the same. Is dedicated to the cleanest area, quit your moaning about it

If you can feel the heavy breathing behind your back, don't fret it's probably just me trying to get a half decent photo.

[JKS]

JKS, poor bub, the main arena, which I guess will stay the same. Is dedicated to the cleanest area, quit your moaning about it

If you can feel the heavy breathing behind your back, don't fret it's probably just me trying to get a half decent photo.

Mojo ya bono .... I am not moaning about it. I loved it, I had a cracker ... even enjoyed the 'cheap' kites !

TOP day.

It just didn't flow so good for the crowd to be able to stop and watch the demonstrations (Freestyle included). But for those that did bother to stop it was very cool.

Steve H, you mentioned crowd involvement, that was one of the strengths of the festival @ Murrarie .... they had a kite making area set aside that was SO busy with mum dad and the kids it was amazing. Must have been 4 - 700 up (guessing) at any one time. You could not walk anywhere without seeing something to do with a kite.

Kids running around like mad ... kites everywhere.

Awesome experience.

Marty

[steve_hobart]

Marty, that's it - kids and mums and dads....that's what grows our sport!!

[DaveA]

they had a kite making area set aside that was SO busy with mum dad and the kids it was amazing. Must have been 4 - 700 up (guessing) at any one time. You could not walk anywhere without seeing something to do with a kite.

Kids running around like mad ... kites everywhere.

What sort of kites, single liners ?

[JKS]

Yeah .... all single liners.

If you have a look at the video I posted a page back you will see.

Marty

[Cesium]

There's a decent chance that I'll be attending Coolum this year. If I'm asked to demo some moves, I'll do my best to put on a decent display and make it look deliberate. If people "get it", that's cool, and if not, that's okay too.

[Steve]

Wow this topic is all over the place, bit like a freestyler learning a new trick!!

Steve H, good on you, your actions demonstrate real passion, however there are only a few people like yourself who will do this at Festivals and in my experience it is a frustrating and thankless task. Takes up heaps of room, and involves a team of volunteers (relaunchers especially).

It also involves some business providing a heap of kites that will be smashed repeatedly into the ground, its not exactly a highly attractive proposition for all involved.

I know Ted from Port Fairy, he did this most summer afternoons, and yet his shop is closed now, its not really viable, commecially, however when guys like you do it out of their kind heart and their passion then it can work for a while until you get sick of people using you up for a free kite flying session when you could be flying yourself.

Kite making at festivals is very common, its always popular if its free or very cheap, it too requires a team of very patient volunteers. Its always single line kites, so really its not part of this discussion. This activity has been done many hundreds of times over the years, by a wide range of people from volunteers to business's, and yet the popularity of kite flying remains somewhat static, go figure?

Too much competition from instant gratification entertainment like video games and even ballsports, etc.

A few peope watching you in a local park is not a good comparison to a festival where there are competing activities. Like I said earlier too, sometimes we find it hard to see the issue objectively when we are a passionate and subjective participant.

Anyway Coolum is definitely on again, and I'll be going, hope to see some of you there and maybe discuss all this over a beer and in person.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

PS there is an annoying glitch in the forum when making a reply over a certain length the reply screen/window bounces around with every keystroke, and you cannot see what you are typing, very annoying Mr Joel! (hint hint)

[damp_weather]

So the question is .... how do you put the 'style' back into Freestyle ?

(Gee I hope thats the question I already have 1 blood nose)

Well, at the risk of stirring things, for public display purposes, perform in time to a piece of music, rather than having music as a background.

- IMO it is rather like dancing. - Some people can do the most amazing gymnastics, but it only starts to look to most people like a good dance when the gymnastics fits with the music and vice versa.

[KaoS]

Absolutely!