Safe and enjoyable manlifting.

[Blazingskibum]

After reading the other recent threads about manlifting and tethered flying. I got to say that most folks are way off base.

Maybe you don’t think this Adrenalize group should be demonstrating manlifting and that is maybe true. But you all say that it is incredibly dangerous, well that is your opinion.

My opinion is:

BOLLOCKS, manlifting is a safe and viable kiting activity!!!

A hundred years ago Samuel Cody was manlifting men off the decks of battleships. To a record height of 2500 some odd feet. Alexander Graham Bell, Marconi, Marchaud all did kite manlifting. There was kite manlifting a 1000 years ago in Asia.

Kite manlifting has a long and rich history and is a significant part of kiting as a whole. It is certainly a viable and enjoyable kiting activity when done correctly.

Manlifting was a sport and at around the turn of the twentieth century was very popular at Fairs and Carnavals. And it was especially popular in England. It was in England that the most successful manlifting systems were invented.

So the activity that you are so down on is in modern times is very British. So whats the problem you folks forget how to manlift safely?

About a year ago the Drachen Foundation had as a cover shot on their magazine of a Dutch Kiter manlifting a women in a long flowing gown. The train of the gown was like 60 feet long. No body thought that was irresponsible! Just an amazing beautiful kiting achievement.

Now I do believe that tethered flying/manlifting should be left to folks who are expert kiters and have done their research and tests. It is not something that should be attempted by folks new and unknowledgable to kiting. That is when problems, injuries and death occur.

So don’t be down on manlifting. Be down on single line tethers and manlifting with four-line power foils. Because that is how most folks get hurt or killed.

Big Kites…big smiles

Blazingskibum

[andrewlcblueyo]

Out of interest, I didn't get involved in the initial rants, although I do think a lot of people over-exaggerate risks sometimes on this forum (I got told off by many people when I suggested it is fine to use a Blade III 4.9 as your first kite, which is what I did and enjoyed immensely), ANYWAY what I was going to say before I lost my train of thought was, what kites do you use for manlifting out of interest?

[Blazingskibum]

The times that I have been part of manlifting projects the kites we have used are stacks of Codys or big Nasa wings

[Chris L]

This is what you need a train of these:

http://www.crustysoft.co.uk/kites/Images/kitePics/CodyKites1.jpg

 

And a Basket:

http://www.crustysoft.co.uk/kites/Images/kitePics/Manlifter.jpg

[flyer]

In the South of France next to Leucate there are 2 separate businesses where you can do man lifting, they have purpose built frames and HUGE nassa wings.

[ADZ]

My opinion is:

 

BOLLOCKS, manlifting is a safe and viable kiting activity!!!

 

matey this forum is used by people of all ages,

 

your more than welcome to express your opinion,

 

but kindly take your language elsewhere,

 

cheers.

[windy]

IMO Manlifting using a a set of cody kites is not the same as man-lifting with ramair style powerkites and is not really comparing like with like.

[Jules B.]

matey this forum is used by people of all ages,

 

your more than welcome to express your opinion,

 

but kindly take your language elsewhere,

 

cheers.

 

thats why we have the ******* censorship :) !!! (btw what word would fit in his censored word?)

 

joking aside I have never heard of manlifting in other forms apart from using power kites. I guess the kind of kites you are talking about would not have the potential to change direction quickly thus slamming the kiter into the ground. In a big slow kite which just sits there its one thing but when using a kite that can generate power by changing direction and darting around it can be a whole different kettle of chips!

 

The manlifting you are talkign about sounds like an interesting idea

[Blazingskibum]

Your right manlifting with a stack of codys is not like using a ram air foil. But in some Nasa wing setups you could replace the Nasa with a large low aspect ram air foil.

The thing is what folks are saying is that manlifting is wrong. That it shouldn’t be done. And that it certainly shouldn’t be done in public. Well it use to be done in public alot. Go to a big cody festival and there will be manlifting. Also manlifting can be very safe. People have paid for manlifting kite rides for a hundred years.

What these folks should be saying is: Most current powerkite designs don’t provide the stable static traction needed for classic kite manlifting. And that most current designs create a danger in manlifting setups and shouldn’t be used for that purpose.

What I think we all don’t want to see is folks flying with a single line tether. Or in most cases any kind of tether with a Blade or similar foil. But because tragedy has befallen many that have tried tethered flying we find now that manlifting has gotten placed into the same negative catagory . But those mistakes of tethered kiters shouldn’t stop folks from setting up and flying folks into the sky on proven manlifting setups.

When it comes down to safety I will bet a pub full of pints that there have been more serious injuries and deaths kitesurfing in the last 5 years than classic kite manlifting has had in the last hundred years.

But in the end it all comes down to the configuration of the setup and the ability of the team.

Big kites….big smiles

Blazingskibum

[Jules B.]

btw does anyone else think the word "manlifting" has a dodgy ring to it?

[The Geoff]

btw does anyone else think the word "manlifting" has a dodgy ring to it?

 

 

You're thinking of shirts....

 

Taxi for Mr Freud!

 

 

I don't know much about old-skool manlifting kites, but doing it with modern LEIs, foils etc is just stupidly dangerous....

[Blazingskibum]

Here is the link to that Drachen cover shot

 

http://www.drachen.org/journals/journal16/Journal16.pdf

[RB]

America & Safety… lets think about this one

 

In america you can buy a friggin gun without too much bother….. So in comparison I guess teathered flying must be as safe as flossing your teeth in the morning LOL

 

I think mr Skibum you have kinda lost the point on this, your on about a totally different way of lifting, almost like parasending or with your Cody and yea people could pay for that in safety , this is about using power kite such as a blade….. Not the same at all, you said it yourself, its when the kite is moveable in direction by the person being lifted that it gets dangerous!

 

Don’t believe us / me… try it out with a large blade and let us know how you get on!

[spooky]

Difference is;

Large stable SINGLE line kites which just sit there, and the person takes a PASSIVE role.

V

Multi line not so stable kites, which require ACTIVE flying thus prone to error and over correction (look at the vid of that chap on the beach who kept over correcting!! )

 

Jon

 

P.s Think the date of Publication is quite apt/amusing FALL 2004 lol

[Osamabinkiting]

Spooky you are very correct and person-lifting ( ) is much older than any of todays ram foils or LEI's.

 

The trouble with your arguement is that as has been pointed out a 4 liner is inherently unstable due to the four control forces acting on it (the kite) i.e. the four control lines.

 

Yes it is possible to lift a body with a kite though the results of beginners or even intermediate flyers trying it when a slight pressure difference on one line or a gust/luff can mean the difference between a thrill or serious injury shows that it is very risky.

 

Single liners are often used to haul larger/novelty kites in to the air and could be used in the fashion to which you mention.

 

No one is downing person-lifting it is just that it is risky and who wants to see headlines "Kiter killed" "Kiter Kills bystander" or if you like substitute injures for kills.

 

If you want to try it go ahead, but remember the consequences.

 

For my tuppence worth I don't think it's a risk worth advertising.

 

Would you advocate popping wheelies at 100mph + on the street or driving at 70mph in a 30 zone just because it can be done and has been done previously?

[ADZ]

thats why we have the ******* censorship :) !!! (btw what word would fit in his censored word?)

 

 

the word was there when i posted my reply........

[Blazingskibum]

I don’t think my point is lost at all.

Point 1: Using singleliners to manlift isn’t like using powerfoils. The thread name is “Safe and enjoyable manlifting”. And I stated earlier that modern Blade type power foils shouldn’t be used in manlifting setups.

So I don’t understand why folks keep going back to the LEI ram air foil comparision.

Believe me it is very cool to be manlifted to the point that you are looking 100 feet down on the tops of power foils that folks are flying. Getting someone 200ft in the air on a kite string is a whole lot more intense than some little 360 on a mountain board 8 ft off the ground. I can say that because I have done both .

Or is it that because safe manlifting means not using powerfoils so it isn’t cool. There is no SLIGHT CHANGE or LUFF that is going to ocuur in a good manlifting setup. You put 400 to 500kgs load on a line even if the average wind halfs you still strong in the air. If the wind doubles you should have spec’ed the setup for at least that anyway.

When you put up a stack of single line lifters they become a sky hook. They aren’t going anywhere or going to do anything strange on a good wind day.

Point 2: You can use steerable kites and have a good manlifting setup. That stack of Super tens that Team Adrenal—whatever was using has provided them with what seems to be a safe and dependable rig for 10 years. To the case in point that someone said in the other thread that “it was boring and they ought to move on.” I have seen many Nasa wing setups that were very cool, easy and safe. One of the best was over water and you could raise and lower yourself by working the Nasa. Drop yourself in the water and raise yourself again to the height of 40ft in that setup. Very Fun and no one has gotten hurt on that guy’s rig in over 20 setups.

So my point is do you want to talk about safe and enjoyable manlifting or do you just want to keep going on about LEI’s and Ram air foils.

Big kites...big amiles

Blazingskibum

[GrolschUK]

I don’t think my point is lost at all.

 

Point 2: You can use steerable kites and have a good manlifting setup. That stack of Super tens that Team Adrenal—whatever was using has provided them with what seems to be a safe and dependable rig for 10 years. To the case in point that someone said in the other thread that “it was boring and they ought to move on.” I have seen many Nasa wing setups that were very cool, easy and safe. One of the best was over water and you could raise and lower yourself by working the Nasa. Drop yourself in the water and raise yourself again to the height of 40ft in that setup. Very Fun and no one has gotten hurt on that guy’s rig in over 20 setups.

 

But little timmy at the show sees a great manlift being done by a stack of super 10's or a blade or whatever the kite of choice for the show is...

 

Little timmy thinks "wow that looks well kool, i want to do that", and goes off to buy himself a kite that looks the same... Which just happens to be a big lifty blade type kite, as that is what he asked the shop for.

 

Little timmy takes his new monster kite out in high winds, tied to the floor/car/tree on the end of a long rope...

 

[Blazingskibum]

That situation with Little Timmy is exactly what no one wants to see. But if everyone keeps saying “No you can’t do that” or “Or that’s really dangerous” it actually makes the activity something that Little Timmy will want to sneak off and do.

And by the way I was one of those little kids many years ago that saw kite manlifting and said” I got to do that”.

This Flexi Forum has been a place that so many folks have gotten good info over the years. So why not give good info about “Safe and enjoyable man lifting”. So if Little Timmy is reading this forum Timmy will know the dangers and what can be safe. Because if he did see Team Adren—whatever then he knows it can be done and no one gets hurt. But how to do it?

So you can say no manlifting with modern powerfoils. But manlifting goes back deep into the history of kiting. So it is easy to say people have been manlifting safely and people will continue to manlift safely. It is very obvious that many folks on this forum haven’t seen much in the way of demonstrated manlifting because if you had you would have something cool to say about it. And it is like someone said “parasailing” but you don’t have the boat.

So how about some input other than what we all know” NO MANLIFTING WITH MODERN BLADE OR LEI TYPE POWERFOILS. This thread seemed to start so well with the Cody input and the other guy talking about manlifting rides in France so there are folks out there that do know something on this topic.

So can we move on and talk about how to do this or how you have seen this done and so Little Timmy will know what it takes to get him and his friends 100ft in the air. And maybe he will actually get to do it one day.

Big kites….big smiles

Blazingskibum

[lazarus]

ok here's a different view point, most of the people who say "don't do it" , "it's dangerous", "you could really mess your self up doing that" are from the uk. it may be different where you are but here if there is the slightest sniff of a nasty accident (don't even think the "D" word too loudly) and it will be banned, another of the limited flying sites in this country becomes unusable. it's much better to discourage and keep sites open than to promote and loose it all. remember local and national government in the uk is messed up, ill informed, reluctant to listen, sneaky, deviouse, always thinks it knows best and worst off all wants to play nanny. if you enjoy it fine i hope you have a long career man lifting and if any thing does ever go wrong then your local government is prepared to accept that it was your choice, you knew what you were doing and you accepted the risks and they don't close your flying site, because sadly that not how it works here

[RB]

Lazarus.... perfectly said! and yes we dont have huge open flying areas... we have on the hole very limited places to fly which we want to keep open. Cody manlifting may be all the rage in the USA, but not here!

 

And imho a 360 on a board is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than going up with a kite, if I want to do that I will go to Majorca and get pulled by a boat!!

 

Once again I really think you need to see that the UK is totally different than the USA and in the unstable way we are it will only take one accident to get us a really bad name, on the hole we alredy do, people dont like kiters, ban us with no good reason and this will just give them another rreason and I still go back to people copying using a blade and huge bit of rope......

 

keep it in the US on one of your tacky shows, (When good cops go bad, When pets attack now when extreme kiting goes bad) PMSL

[Angel76]

The company down near Leucate that does "manlifting" does it in a controlled and safe way. The flyer is tethered to a frame, but also has a bungee line attached to the ground, which means it's impossible to hit either the pillar that you're hanging from, or the ground. So in that way, I don't suppose it's either manlifting or tethered flying, really. The guy that invented this particular version did so because (I think) he had a friend badly injured trying tethered flying, and wanted to find a way to get the buzz whilst minimising the risks involved. Believe me, it IS a buzz, yet utterly safe at the same time. They even do tandem flights! Have a look on http://www.sky-fly.com for some bonkers images...

[Blazingskibum]

Looking at the web page of that system in Leucate. That is an elegant example of suspension tethering which is without question the safest way to use a maneuverable kite. A fine example of safe an enjoyable manlifting. The bungy is a real good idea.

I have used a couple of suspension tether systems and they almost always yoke between two tall objects either dropping down a two line flying tether or a single line flying tether. The two line system provide better safety and less movement side to side. The single line suspension like Leucate provides the freedom of movement that we all think tethered flying should/would have.

One of the most fun and visually stunning suspension tethers I have gotten to fly on was in a deep gorge and the single line tether was dropped down off a bridge 200ft above. You had to use a small boat to get out to the middle of the river. Then you harness up in the boat and you are suspended just at the surface of the water and the support boat drifts downstream with the kite, which was a 12m NASA wing and you launch the kite from the boat. The freedom of flying in that rig was awesome.

Big kites…..big smiles

Blazingskibum

[Jonesing4Wind]

Hanging from a bridge sound like the most fun idea of tethered flying I have heard of!

 

For my 2cents, I think we should continue to discourage tethered flying on this board and others like this one, (a) because because there is not a dedicated place for it and (b) because this forum is for 4line ramair foils/LEIs and the like.

 

Maybe FF (or another forum) should step up and give those interested in tethered flying a place to openly discuss safe and dangerous techniques.

At the very least, cross-promote a site that deals with it, because it is not going away, and a lack of knowledge is dangerous thing.

 

Sean

[KermitStu]

if you read through this it sounds as if you are all talking about a drug or something that was once accepted but now is not

 

if it safe and the person is in control why not it sounds like a fun idea