last gasp any one going

[djstu_d]

you cheeky m........

[AndySmith]

I have to put my hands up and say I pushed my buggy round the bottom mark and then the top mark. I took the view that the rule states no pushing your yacht directly into wind and as there was no wind then technically it was not cheating? However I did feel like a cheat and was happy that Pete won as it probably reflected the true situation. On the flip side a race with no wind is not a race once the majority of competitors can no longer move! I believe we have an 8mph minimum wind rule so I guess technically once the wind had dropped the race should have been abandoned and scored back to the preceding lap? Then I would have been the winner!

 

The reality of why I pushed round the mark was cause I wanted to get back to the pits and get stuck into Chris’s mint imperials!!

 

Gray

Technically it was not cheating!!! So what was powering your kite as you disappeared into the distance after walking round the mark if there was no wind to push into? Thats appaling logic to use to try and justify it - Pete managed to sail round the mark did he not?

 

The reality Graham is that you were so desperate not to let Pete Swann get ahead that you pushed your buggy upwind round the mark in an attempt to catch him up.

If you were that desperate for mint imperials you could have packed up and walk back.

 

What if laterly the wind had picked up and you had beat Pete? - then what

[Sir Nemo]

merry xmas andy smith

 

 

tis the season of gudwill

 

av a smoke of the illegal stuff and chill

[AndySmith]

merry xmas andy smith

 

tis the season of gudwill

 

av a smoke of the illegal stuff and chill

 

Pah Humbug -

[Gray Cloud]

Okay well here goes for my weak excuse for cheating. Just before the mark there was not enough wind for me to power my buggy in any direction in fact I could detect no wind at all but once round the mark away from the dune there was enough to move. Therefore I chose to buggy back rather than walk. I was my intention to own up to this possible cheating on arrival at the start and finish line. When I got there I could also not move and was told by the race officer to push my buggy through the line. I did announce that I had already pushed round the bottom mark. Had I of been declared the winner then I would not of accepted if it had made a difference because for me it would have been a hollow victory, I was in fact happy to loose to Pete in the end although I did make him work for it. At the time of the first pushing I was quite happy to forfeit the race and go have a cup of tea with my girlfriend. When there is no wind there is no race plain and simply I just did not want to walk back if I could buggy I really did not expect to carry on all the way back.

 

I did tell as many people as possible who congratulated me that I had in fact pushed my buggy and therefore cheated depending on you point of view.

 

Graham Steel

 

[steveP]

Andy, you stood, along with a few others, and saw me struggle to round that top mark by flying alone. I didn't get much further downwind of the mark than a hundred yards or so but I managed it. I was then prepared to stand there and wait untill either the wind picked up or the race was cancelled. Those that had started walking back were saying to me that it would count if we finished the lap under or own steam. I thought,thats not right I'm sticking this one out. But as more and more people said it I thought sod this, I ain't going to let all the hard work I'd put in up to that point of the race be taken away from me by somebody walking back and scoring whilst I stood there like a lemon doing the right thing. I knew It was wrong or at least as I understood it. But I was willing to take the conciquences (sp) rather than loose what I had achieved that far. It would be interesting to know what the placings where when the wind stopped. Who gained? Who lost out? I didn't, couldn't go back out when the wind picked up again because my kite had got so wet from being put into a wet buggy for the walk back that it wouldn't fly. SO even without getting any extra laps in my lap total stayed the same. Including the half a lap walked.

I know up to the point when the wind dropped I was doing the best I had ever in a race. Everything was going great and getting better. I was loving it. Soaking wet, freezing cold and with salty sandy water in my mouth. Only wished it had continued like that.

I understand, I think, the sentiment behind your post and don't realy see it as rubbishing the event. Even if you do finger me, so to speak.

 

anyhoo NEXT!

[SandMonster]

Thanks to the organisers for organising it - didn't race, but had fun on Sat - sounds like you all had fun on Sun

 

(Apologies for posting this on every possible thread, but...If anyone has spotted a sleeve from a flexi buggy wide axle kit - looks like a bit of white plastic tube about 1.5 inch diameter and 6 inch long - in the parking area can you give me a shout? I seem to have dropped it on sat packing up in the dark

 

Cheers

 

Mike)

[Gray Cloud]

I think there is a very real point to be made here in that the race really was not much of a race. The problem is more for the sponsored pilots than anyone else because the result will be there for everyone to see but dose not reflect the true nature of the so called race. This is the reason we have a minimum wind rule so we actually have a race not a farce. I don’t mind a bit of fun and I did ask about the minimum wind rule at the pilots meeting and was told there would not be one (at that point I turned to my girlfriend and said I don’t think I can win this one).

 

It’s a difficult question of whether it is okay to have a bit of fun or should it be taken more seriously. For the sponsored riders where money is at stake then I believe it should be taken more seriously because remember the sponsors and the other pilots from round the world will look at the results and may make decisions based on them! Not knowing that half the fleet pushed round a lap?

 

I am not so hard line on this event as Andy but I would take a dimmer view if this was to happen at a National event.

 

The min wind rule should be adhered to and in my opinion the race should have been abandoned once the wind dropped.

 

Gray

[big-jon]

I think there are some good points coming out in this discussion. One of the best being that the Last Gasp was not a really serious race. Please correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure a lot of people will) but I thought both the Last Gasp and the Icicles events are supposed to be a bit of fun??

 

I suppose offcially the race should have been called to a halt when the wind died and a lot of pilots should have been disqualified - me included as I did push my buggy up to a group of other pilots around the bottom mark, because I was bored on my own and I wanted to see if anyone had a ciggies!! I did not walk back from the bottom mark, myself and a few others got tow from a friendly Ranger! Which I know deffo meant we should have been disqualified:)

 

If I had walked back and got another lap marked then I would have come in the top ten, which I would have been happy about and as Gray said so would my sponsors.

 

Maybe the PKA when they put the results up on their site say something about the conditions ?? Dunno how they would word it but maybe its something to think about?

 

Apart from all that, for the first 45 mins it was a top race, us locals had a slight advantage knowing where the hard sand was and I did take full advantage of it! It was good getting on a sand bank and passing people who were on the soft stuff! The jump near the start line was a bit deadly! Was a deffo water jump, just wish I could have got enough speed up to jump it totally and miss the water, but I may have been thrown of the beach for buggy jumping !!

 

Good weekend, good fun, isn't that all that really matters????

[RedWineRacer]

Good weekend, good fun, isn't that all that really matters????

Yes, that's what it's all about.

[GaRRy]

Think the one thing that comes out of this is that before the next event (Serious or otherwise) a definate decision needs to be made on when/how pushing is allowed (It can even vary from event to event as long as people are informed). The big issue here as I see it is that under the official rules its just not allowed and that is the rules we started under. To change them after the event has started when some people obvously sat out on course thinking to walk would gain them nothing and others walking as muich a 3/4 of a lap and making a obvious gain is plainly wrong. Surely a Even playing field is the least we should expect.

 

Personally although I did get the lap I think its basically wrong and in future should never be allowed. Walking back to pits and then starting a lap again without crossing start line is fine as there is no real benefit as you waste the time walking back.

[8015]

Walking back to pits and then starting a lap again without crossing start line is fine as there is no real benefit as you waste the time walking back.

That has been my rationale in the past, and as long as the walk is due to equipment failure it is fine.

However when the wind drops and most people cannot move, and those that do are moving slowly, even pushing back to the pit for a bigger kite could save you time over people waiting with the same kite or crawling around with the same kite.

 

I guess the bottom line is that if you have equipment failure that means you can't fly to the pits, you are out of the race - period.

 

I have made 2 walks (and already admitted to them), the Hoylake last round I agreed with Rob that I could start later, but acknowledge it was irregular. At the Ainsdale team race I totally soaked my kite and it did not fly again on that day of the race (did manage to fly it after we stopped for a bit, and then dropped it again and got it wetter.....) - at that point I pushed back to the pit so another team member could restart my lap (Kev didn't go through the start gate) which seemed a valid TEAM tactic, after all we still had 2 pilots ready to replace me. It would be good if whoever organises the next team race could bear that in mind as it is perhaps the only time I could really justify a push back. I guess there should be other rules attached though to prevent it from becoming a cheat tactic, perhaps a rule that pilots who push back to get replaced are not allowed to race again, thus reducing the number of team members? I'm sure other sensible options will occur to people. Now if I had been removed from the team by such a rule, we would have struggled on day 2 as the rest of my team went home before the wind got to the 8mph minimum! I guess it did drop back and the race was stopped before I got a lap in but I think Gray docked a lap from teams that didn't start the second day to make the results more meaningful for all those who spent the extra 45 minutes fighting their biggest kites! Also that grid start was the coolest thing ever - I'm glad I never missed out on that

 

JIM

[GaRRy]

Pretty certain for enduros it has always been acceptable to walk back to pits and start current lap again as obviously over a long period wind can change and would be silly for every one to stay where they are waiting for wind to pick up/drop again for next say 3 hours (as well as not much fun). If someone else has made the right kite choice and is continuing then after walk back you are going to be hard pushed to catch them. Admitedly this can be fairer on some than others as some will be closer to pits than others but not a lot you can do about that.

 

For short course races if wind drops of that bad race is abandoned and if for any other circumstances you walk race is usually over before you can get going again anyway so walking gives no advantage.

[Gray Cloud]

This is how it is and will be for all Super Cup events next year.

 

All will follow FISLY ISARR

 

Systematic pushing of your buggy will not be allowed with the exception of;

 

1) returning to the technical zone to get a replacement part ( if this is done then the pilot must return to the point he started pushing to restart his race)

 

2) if the pilot is causing a danger or an obstruction he may push his kart to a safe location without penalty. (he must not be seen to gain an advantage from pushing and pushing into wind would be seen as taking advantage with the exception of him pushing into wind and then returning to the original point)

 

If the wind drops during a race to a point below 8mph for a period of more than 3mins then the race will be stopped and either scored or restarted it may be possible as in the 6hr to use an aggregate score but this will be down to the race officer on the day.

 

Graham Steel

[GaRRy]

This is how it is and will be for all Super Cup events next year.

 

All will follow FISLY ISARR

 

Systematic pushing of your buggy will not be allowed with the exception of;

 

1) returning to the technical zone to get a replacement part ( if this is done then the pilot must return to the point he started pushing to restart his race)

 

2) if the pilot is causing a danger or an obstruction he may push his kart to a safe location without penalty. (he must not be seen to gain an advantage from pushing and pushing into wind would be seen as taking advantage with the exception of him pushing into wind and then returning to the original point)

 

If the wind drops during a race to a point below 8mph for a period of more than 3mins then the race will be stopped and either scored or restarted it may be possible as in the 6hr to use an aggregate score but this will be down to the race officer on the day.

 

Graham Steel

Fair enough Gray but what about if wind speed increases and only way pilots can return to pits is by pushing as kite now have is to big (As you know this as happened and to your advantage).Or do you count changing kite as replacing parts ?

 

 

Also for a 2 hour enduro 3 mins seems a bit short 10 seems a better figure but its your call..

[Mark Rose]

1) returning to the technical zone to get a replacement part ( if this is done then the pilot must return to the point he started pushing to restart his race)

Does this meen we have to push back to the pits,get the part and then push back to the place we stopped?

[Gray Cloud]

Changing kites is the same as replacing parts.

 

3min is the rule to start a race so I thought 3mins would be the same for stopping. (you have to remember that this will only be measured at the start and finish line a and therefore it is likely there will be less wind for even longer at some other part of the course) it will be race officers discretion to a large extent but clearly if 95% of the field are not moving then the race needs to be abandoned.

 

You can buggy back to the point you started walking from but you must not impede other pilots on the way.

 

Gray

[Alien]

This is how it is and will be for all Super Cup events next year.

 

All will follow FISLY ISARR

 

Systematic pushing of your buggy will not be allowed with the exception of;

 

1) returning to the technical zone to get a replacement part ( if this is done then the pilot must return to the point he started pushing to restart his race)

 

2) if the pilot is causing a danger or an obstruction he may push his kart to a safe location without penalty. (he must not be seen to gain an advantage from pushing and pushing into wind would be seen as taking advantage with the exception of him pushing into wind and then returning to the original point)

 

If the wind drops during a race to a point below 8mph for a period of more than 3mins then the race will be stopped and either scored or restarted it may be possible as in the 6hr to use an aggregate score but this will be down to the race officer on the day.

 

Graham Steel

Of course under FISLEY rules you don't have to return to the technical zone to change your Kite or kit. You can carry spares and stop anywhere off the racing line to make changes. Will this be permitted in next years Super Cup ?

Measuring the average wind can be a truly subjective business leading to even more debate.

[Gray Cloud]

You are correct but no we will not permit changing equipment on the course. It’s too subjective as to what is on or off the course.

 

I don’t think measuring the average wind is really that subjective as it will be done with a wind meter and the Race Officers decision will be final!

[AndySmith]

A few toughts

 

1. Its normally pretty clear after a couple of laps of a race what is the racing line and quite obvious to most what would be constituted off or on it - however you would always have to move downwind so as not to gain advantage - carrying a spare set of lines or a complete kite to change during a race - off of the racing line would not be issue with me as race officer but it would count as a proport of any ballast allowance. It would be a rare instance that many would gain a real advantage from doing this. Infact at a proper Last Gasp event in the past watching a pilot tow a spare skytiger around the course watching it slowly disintegrate over a couple of hours because the bag had slipped and was dragging on the floor was very amusing:D.

 

2. Wind measurement - I would say if the wind drops below 75% of the minimum wind speed at the start gate for a period of 10% of the race duration then it should be called.

 

3. FISLY ISSAR rules with a few changes to the course and starting rules at least Gray - The ISSAR rules are to Landyatch Specific and although a sound foundation could be improved for Parakart racing.

 

4. A race is a race and should be treated as such - you can have fun at a race or be serious you have the choice - You cannot race seriously at a fun event - thats what blind buggy tanden events are for You cannot start and race and end as fun event as you remove any choice for the competitors. Charging £15-£20 for a one day FUN event is not funny.

 

Andrew

[coupe-se]

A few toughts..............................

 

4. A race is a race and should be treated as such - you can have fun at a race or be serious you have the choice - You cannot race seriously at a fun event - thats what blind buggy tanden events are for You cannot start and race and end as fun event as you remove any choice for the competitors. Charging £15-£20 for a one day FUN event is not funny.

 

Andrew

 

I don't quite understand this paragraph?????????

 

Everyone I know who races does this in their LEISURE time (ie to have FUN) and get away from the normal hassles of life, yet they all take it very seriously while at the same as having fun............. as these are not mutually exclusive of each other.

I raced properly for the 1st time on Sunday took it extremely seriously and had immense fun in the process.

 

As for the 'charging' of an event, people know before hand the cost and have a choice whether to pay or not.

I happily paid £20 on Sunday for what turned out to be approx 1 hour of racing. It should have been 4 hours, but changing wind conditions are the norm for the sport and we all learn to accept that.

I won a Baseball cap for my efforts so I'm well chuffed

 

Maybe I've misinterpreted your post???????

[AndySmith]

I don't quite understand this paragraph?????????

 

Everyone I know who races does this in their LEISURE time (ie to have FUN) and get away from the normal hassles of life, yet they all take it very seriously while at the same as having fun............. as these are not mutually exclusive of each other.

I raced properly for the 1st time on Sunday took it extremely seriously and had immense fun in the process.

 

As for the 'charging' of an event, people know before hand the cost and have a choice whether to pay or not.

I happily paid £20 on Sunday for what turned out to be approx 1 hour of racing. It should have been 4 hours, but changing wind conditions are the norm for the sport and we all learn to accept that.

I won a Baseball cap for my efforts so I'm well chuffed

 

Maybe I've misinterpreted your post???????

I don't know if you have either.

 

I don't race for FUN (never have) and nor do many people who take the sport seriously. I race to compete and enjoy myself but not for FUN - I have a playstation for fun.

 

Most leisure persuits are in LEISURE time but few are just for FUN - your reasons for partaking in any sporting event are up to you of course - however a RACE is a RACE not a FUN EVENT and races are governed by rules and regulations like them or not, its what gives an even platform for competitors to work under, whether they decide to take part seriously and competitively or just for FUN. My point is that competitors race for a multitude of reasons and that choice is thier own. Take The London Marathon as an example - a very mixed crowd very serious and just for the FUN of it - but would the oragisers dream of stopping the RACE half way through becuase not all the competiors could make it or that some only had to do 10 miles or use a cab to finish?

 

At the Last Gasp you and many others appear to have participated for FUN perhaps with or without the knowledge of the established rules and regulations that govern a racing event - you obviously got out of the event just what YOU wanted so have no complaints. I (and maybe just me) on the other hand participated to enjoy myself racing competitively on an even playing field to the established rules and regs. However at the end of the day the rules regs were taken away and disgarded (the race was then a farce) and with the rules went the reason why I attended. I enjoyed myself as equally as you right up until the established rules were thrown out the window.

 

You enjoyed yourself for your reasons why should my enjoyment have been taken away from me. It also feems fine for people to to say "I had a great time becuase I had fun" - But I get flamed by morons for excersizing my right to say "I had a sh1te time because the organisers moved the goalposts and took away my enjoyment and reason for attending the event" - wind or no wind accepted as a hazard of the sport.

 

If the organisers had stopped the race due to lack of wind - and the places counted from that point no walking or pushing laps counted - would you have enjoyed the event less? probably not? and neither would I have and thats my point.

 

If they had then followed accepted protocol, called a pilots meeting and had a short race round a shorter course for some FUN would you have enjoyed the race less - probably not? and neither would I.

 

This distinction seems to be lost on a lot of people - deliberately? only they know.

 

As for money - I would not have attended a FUN event that cost me £20 - The Last Gasp is a well established internationally recognised enduro. Its never been a FUN event - If its a FUN event now then change the name to the Mickey Mouse winter FUN Buggy race. However the Icicles has always been a fun event and guess what I only attend for a bit of FUN:D

 

Hope this clarify's point 4 and allows you decide if you have misinterpreted it or not.

[coupe-se]

Oh dear, Oh dear!!!

 

Hopefully the majority made the best of a difficult day wind-wise and enjoyed themselves like myself.

I had a 400mile+ round trip that day, my only complaint is against mother nature.

[king_of_the_sky]

sorry i gotta agree you can race and take it seriously and still have fun, imho

[Mark Rose]

Some folk on this forum need something in their lives to help put things into perspective.

As responsible adults most of us have stresses and presures to deal with in our everyday lives and going round a course on a buggy powered by a kite is our way of escaping from our problems and responsibilities.

There is too much of this bollox involved in our sport and its time the stupid arguing and bickering stopped and people started acting like adults.......

It's supposed to be fun ffs!

 

Andy...get on with your buggying and stop moaning.

If you are not happy about the way things are run,don't come to the races.