Pansh A15 Prototype

[socommk233]

43 minutes ago, agriarte said:

In my experience Pansh communication is totally void. I wrote them 2 times after buying a 15m Aurora with lines and bars and months later I'm waiting for an answer

Their bar is crap, very poor design and don't work well.

 

 

I've not found this. I wonder what is wrong with it in your opinion? How has it failed you? 

I changed mine to a race setup to make depowering easier. Otherwise I have no issues with it what so ever

[Kiter_from_Germany]

On 13.6.2016 at 1:00 PM, socommk233 said:

I received the v2 bridle.  Hated it. Couldn't make it fly right. 

V1 bridle works....but modified as I did makes it work better Imo. 

Hi, strange, the V2 bridle thing. I come to the point that canopy is great but panshs line setups are more from a theoretic point of view, not from a practical.

Two remarks to your modifications:

B/C have to be as you find it optimising the wing performance, no comments on that.

Z: In my earlier tweaks modifiing lines (for example shorten Z) lead to earlier stall because of the (pre)bent wing tip (After pretension, Z will still running ahead C in even powered positions, causing earlier stall). 10cm as you did seems to be ok on the fotos, in my tests I got bad results from 15cm on at a 18m pansh A15.

A WAC line could help preventing Z to be still ahead C when kite is powered up and may be a good tweak to improve the power stall performance again after shortening Z.

I myself finally got best results by using the 2:1 bar:

1) Depower: Due to no pretension of Z I get a quick kite by depowering completely and be able to shoot it to the position I want (->jumping). In our gusty situations I am able to throw the bar away when beeing hit by gust when umprepared, also.

2)Power: Due to 2:1 gear in bar I reach the stall or near stall - position easily and get best brake or lift in overshooting or jumping situations

3)Overall: good steering performance because of 2:1 gear working in the steering process, too.
This is the crucial: You double the line length (both, the positive and negative steering pulse doubles) by a given steering angle. Makes the kite "double responsible".

The kite's steering performance is documented in a video - if you like, look at the pansh A15 video in workum NL on youtube. For example the downstroke turn up at 1:56 at 10-11kn approx. The kite dont loose pull during the complete downstroke/upward turn, which is pretty essentially for waterstart.
Turning performance: Pls keep in mind that this is an 18m pansh - I never felt this steering performance in my tweaks before. None of the line length tweeks made it possible to be secure on the water in gusty winds, as shown in vid. Indeed it was my first successful day on the water with pansh A15 using 2:1 bar.

My suggestion is: If kite feeling slow, who can, should get one 2:1bar and give it a try with standard kite line setup. The easiest way without getting lost in modifications - easy setup and restore and perhaps it helps making the kite even better.

[socommk233]

i found the v1 bridle let the kite canopy have too much camber, shortening the b line flattened it out and even introduces a little reflex when depowering allowing for a faster canopy. the brake lines needed shortening to speed up the steering responce. i want this kite as a low wind toy and without making the changes it would not turn fast enough nor did it feel like it was inflated properly, felt more like a jelly fish when depowered. 

shortening the brake lines also allow me to stall the kite if i trim it right, this can allow me to make faster turns without having to raise the kite to dive it after a down wind turn, i can complete the turn by holding the kite back, powering it up and completeing the turn by releasing pressure speeding up the kite on exit.

but then this is all on an aurora2 for buggy use rather than a a15 on water.

by the way, my modifications are reversable in seconds as ive used the small metal bits they have on the line ends.

[socommk233]

On 13/06/2016 at 3:46 PM, agriarte said:

 

[Kiter_from_Germany]

17 hours ago, socommk233 said:

 

hi, 

Interesting way to work with the ECLs.

I myself found the loop at one side big enough to make a larks head around the ECL, so make it even more secure and symmetric (<- helps not to tangle too easy with other lines).

Are the loops too short now?

 

17 hours ago, socommk233 said:

i found the v1 bridle let the kite canopy have too much camber, shortening the b line flattened it out and even introduces a little reflex when depowering allowing for a faster canopy. the brake lines needed shortening to speed up the steering responce. i want this kite as a low wind toy and without making the changes it would not turn fast enough nor did it feel like it was inflated properly, felt more like a jelly fish when depowered. 

shortening the brake lines also allow me to stall the kite if i trim it right, this can allow me to make faster turns without having to raise the kite to dive it after a down wind turn, i can complete the turn by holding the kite back, powering it up and completeing the turn by releasing pressure speeding up the kite on exit.

but then this is all on an aurora2 for buggy use rather than a a15 on water.

by the way, my modifications are reversable in seconds as ive used the small metal bits they have on the line ends.

Your right, we have to tweak a little with every kite family.

But good to hear how others find solutions, and having them discussed - lots of skills can be brought together with that, thanks.

[socommk233]

It is just a larks head mid line onto the metal ring. So easy n fast to adjust/remove/add to make modification easy. 

[Kiter_from_Germany]

52 minutes ago, socommk233 said:

It is just a larks head mid line onto the metal ring. So easy n fast to adjust/remove/add to make modification easy. 

Ja,

much easier to connect like the standard ring connection. Should have used that while fiddeling my 100 bar setups :o)

[Rule]

So many suggestions I can't really make out what is necessary to make the A15 perform.. I'm thinking about buying one, however will it be enough to buy/create a 2:1 bar and replace the existing bar or will it need more tweaking? I would go for the 15m, so maybe the standard bar would just do the trick as well?

And what worries me is your quote (from our German kiter :)) "They supply no service information (line lengths, mixer setup etc) which you need because the system comes pretty disadjusted sometimes - even in readytofly mode."

Does this mean there is a fundamental error (i.e. lines too short/long) or more that it needs tinkering to work properly (i.e. get a 2:1 bar)?

[Kiter_from_Germany]

1 hour ago, Rule said:

So many suggestions I can't really make out what is necessary to make the A15 perform.. I'm thinking about buying one, however will it be enough to buy/create a 2:1 bar and replace the existing bar or will it need more tweaking? I would go for the 15m, so maybe the standard bar would just do the trick as well?

And what worries me is your quote (from our German kiter :)) "They supply no service information (line lengths, mixer setup etc) which you need because the system comes pretty disadjusted sometimes - even in readytofly mode."

Does this mean there is a fundamental error (i.e. lines too short/long) or more that it needs tinkering to work properly (i.e. get a 2:1 bar)?

Hi Rule,

no fundamental error reportet till now (but you should define 'fundamental error').

I bought a pansh A15 in 18m. With a standard bar I was not able to fly it properly, at least on the water in our gusty winds.

Unfortunatley there is no documentation about those kites availiable in the internet nor pansh is supplying something to customers. Experience from most is by buying a kite you get the kite and information from the homepage. Luckily there are some great discussions out there in the internet.

The problem for me was, that If you try to optimize a foil kite without getting further information you have to go through several exclusion methods to find the point where improvments are possible.

I for example foud the standard setup with a 2:1 bar best performing, I commented why.
A collegue of mine, who is landboarding and owns a pansh A15 in 15m is pretty fine with standard setup, but steers by gripping in the steering lines to improve steering.

Others lay static trim to the overfly (depower side) or the stall side (some even depower by stalling the kite)

All those strategies are valid.

My persomal view about pansh is that I like the canopy very much. The way they get the square meters of the kite by increasing the profile depth results In a much more compact canopy than for example Flysurfer with their kites with biiig streth (width).

Clear drawback of this design approach is the enormous depower way you have to handle: The deeper the profile depth, the less angle you can create by a given bar throw - > its just trigonometry.

The strategies to handle this are different, everyone has to decide to live with it or change something. 

A few things I dislike and you should prepare yourself for two tasks, which are acceptable at this price point I think:

Lines will shorten after use and time. Unfortunately pansh supplies no line plan with the correct line lengths. If you like to fly it for more than a season, pls. do yourself a favour and measure the linelength of the bridles (unfortunately ca. 100 lines... :o)

Next: pansh builds no trimming option in mixer like FS does (at least at my A15). You should prepare to bulid that for having the option to do a mixer test and trim.

So, if you buy one and you are not happy with performance of standard mixer setup, static trim options and so, next step should be a 2:1 bar of a good old 2008 kite or so...

...or you start tweaking shortening lines and so on. But at this point you should have eyperiences with foil kites because a wrong knot will lead to even worse flight characteristics like "alwas stall", collapsing and tackos in the air and at the wind window edges.... if you go this direction go with the successful modifications reported in the forums.

 

 

[Rule]

Ok so let me check if I get this right and understand it all. I hear you say two things:

- some people achieve faster steering by pulling the steering lines by hand

- some people do a static trim on the frontlines, some on the backlines (i.e. shorten them)

And looking the how the 2:1 bar works, you basically pull in more steering lines with it compared to the front lines. So a non-static steering line trim.

To some extend, this can also be achieved by trimming the kite using the depower strap right? Ofcourse it will not have the same effects of the 2:1 bar steering, but trimming will change the angle of attack. And it is easy to adjust during flight.

 

The shortening of the lines is weird though! It is aramid right? That should not shrink at all.. not if it truely made out of UHMWPE. (I will take your advice however :))

[.Joel]

3 minutes ago, Rule said:

- some people achieve faster steering by pulling the front/steering lines by hand

No, steering lines are the rear lines.  You find with larger or higher-aspect slower turning kites now and again you grab a handful of rear line (steering line) to make it turn faster, effectively stalling part of the kite as it "pivot" turns.  You lose power, but it turns a hell of a lot faster.

[Rule]

22 minutes ago, .Joel said:

No, steering lines are the rear lines.  You find with larger or higher-aspect slower turning kites now and again you grab a handful of rear line (steering line) to make it turn faster, effectively stalling part of the kite as it "pivot" turns.  You lose power, but it turns a hell of a lot faster.

Totally right, my bad, corrected it for other viewers. I erroneously keep calling front/power lines steering lines since intuitively you steer with the front (wheels)

[socommk233]

No aramid fibers

[Kiter_from_Germany]

17 hours ago, Rule said:

To some extend, this can also be achieved by trimming the kite using the depower strap right? Ofcourse it will not have the same effects of the 2:1 bar steering, but trimming will change the angle of attack. And it is easy to adjust during flight.

 

The shortening of the lines is weird though! It is aramid right? That should not shrink at all.. not if it truely made out of UHMWPE. (I will take your advice however :))

Hi, 

as said by the collegues here.

One cent to trim: My fault. I would say, that static trim is morely using different knots on lines to connect the kite with a different angle of attack.
The depower strap I would name dynamic, because you can change during flight.
Usually the possibilities of the depower strap are limited (lets say 30-40cm), so the variance of (for example) steering lines come into play, sometimes.
After all is: Total Trim = static Trim + dynamic Trim.

On my test bar, I made myself a monster depower line and so a monster dynamic Trim (you see on the vid) to have a good range while testing. So in my RnD Track I mixed static and dynamic because I used just my >50cm dynamic Trim for easy adjustment purpose. Sorry for mixing that up. Lateron I'll shorten that depower back again, because of general handling issues.

 

Shortening of lines (in modern lines) is not a marerial issue, morely an issue caused by the weaving / stretching process. Think of the material being weaved and than released and falling into sand. The little cambers between the weave fibres will get dust in and so the line can't get back to its old length beeing streched again, because of the dust in between. Some technics like  lacquering or compressing methods try to get rid of this effect, but usually there is one after time.

 

[agriarte]

On 13/6/2016 at 5:31 PM, socommk233 said:

I've not found this. I wonder what is wrong with it in your opinion? How has it failed you? 

I changed mine to a race setup to make depowering easier. Otherwise I have no issues with it what so ever

Sorry for my late answer. I don't have time for sailing and now, on the summer, the kitesurf is forbidden in my place.

My bar is horrible and also it came with bad setup, totally no functional. You can see my old issue here:

I'm very interested to know how trimming a foil. When the summer will be finish and bathers and tourists leave the beach I'm going to ask a lot to the masters of this forum. 

[socommk233]

I've had no issues with my bar. In its original set up or as my modified setup. I gave had it work fine on my aurora 8m. My aroura 2 15m and now on my fone diablo. 

[Kiter_from_Germany]

21 hours ago, socommk233 said:

I've had no issues with my bar. In its original set up or as my modified setup. I gave had it work fine on my aurora 8m. My aroura 2 15m and now on my fone diablo. 

Agree, (mostly)

Bar itself: working fine, Lines ok - great Ideas (ELCs and 10mm O-Rings), "inspired by Flysurfer and Ozone" :o)

What I (personally) dislike is the "suicide Release" of the Quick Release system, because it may lead to serious injury (Pulling safety while having body or hand in the snap radius):

For that I changed the QR System with North's, which is a more popular Push-Away-QR.

But all depends on you like and need. For that money, even the rest of the bar system is a catch.

Line Lengths:

Keep in mind to make a proper line / trim check. The Bar itself is well trimmed, if you loose depower strap completely and pull the bar completely (-> Bar system fully powered up). The lines should have the same length (connection points of the kite can be bend together, fixed at a fence. By pulling at the bar all lines should load the same way)

->

 

[socommk233]

I don't use the chicken loop. Removed it and put a witchard quick release on it instead. 

[Jussi Kaijasilta]

I broke my kite with first water session. Kite detached from bridles in gust. Most of it was because of poor lines. Some briddle connection broke also from kite side. I send email for them, so far no real answer. I hope they will fix this the right way. I will keep you informed! I used standard 5 line bar from North.

 

Kite looked quite well build. However you get wat you pay for. If I compare the stichwork with my speed 3 and pansh, there is clear difference. Pansh has lot less reinforcement in seams.

[.Joel]

@Jussi Kaijasilta wow.  
Those little connector lines between the bridle and the tabs are meant to rip away, preventing damage to the kite.  What you have shown photos of is a clear and utter failure, that's not normal considering the amount of people out flying Pansh closed cell kites.  Clearly they didn't work  
 

If I compare the stichwork with my speed 3 and pansh, there is clear difference.

Absolutely, however there's also a clear price difference of 3x at new.  That's the same sleeved bridling material used on a plethora of depower kites not just Pansh.  For that bridle to rip the way you've shown above in your hand like that the forces must of been one serious gust!  I still can't believe those little line connectors didn't give way like they're intended to!

Hopefully Pansh come to the party on this, keep us in the loop  

[Kiter_from_Germany]

@Jussi,

wow, the last photos of the bridle line look like ran over by a motorboat...Really sad...

 

[Jussi Kaijasilta]

3 hours ago, .Joel said:

@Jussi Kaijasilta wow.  
Those little connector lines between the bridle and the tabs are meant to rip away, preventing damage to the kite.  What you have shown photos of is a clear and utter failure, that's not normal considering the amount of people out flying Pansh closed cell kites.  Clearly they didn't work  
 

Absolutely, however there's also a clear price difference of 3x at new.  That's the same sleeved bridling material used on a plethora of depower kites not just Pansh.  For that bridle to rip the way you've shown above in your hand like that the forces must of been one serious gust!  I still can't believe those little line connectors didn't give way like they're intended to!

Hopefully Pansh come to the party on this, keep us in the loop  

Well have been in stronger winds and gusts for many years with my 4-5 year old speed. Cloth is so old that it cannot anymore hold water. Stichwork however is still fine. Have had to replace just one  bridle line (the one with pulleys).

As you said those thin line connections should have given away. But stichwork was so bad that it was not the weakest point. Pansh accused me of ruining the kite in wet sand. Well our lake is mud bottomed thats all I say against that. I have bought cheap stuff from china before and when there has been problems they have always given me a replacement. Unfortunately it looks like Pansh is not the same. They have not replied to my emails for 1 month now... I have written for them multiple times.

I think this would be a great product if they had some quality control and would take complaints seriously. They could really compete with the big boys. However if they ignore complaints and don't replace faulty products it is going to be trouble ahead. If it had broken like this during big jump winter time I could have seriously injured myself...

I personally will rather buy old quality kites in the future. You can get for example HQ kites used about the same price as their ultralight colth

[Mfwetu]

@Jussi Kaijasilta, Glad you're OK. From the damage to the kite it looks like you must have had a really bad time. I'm curious, did the damage happen in the gust while the kite was in the air or afterwards when it was in the water?

[Rule]

Ah annoying, there are two threads on the A15.. I'll just post here as well then

But first, wow that is some damage on your kite? And especially on the bridles, how did that happen? Must have been full force on just a couple of lines? Was it in the water/on the ground? And also; if the small connector lines are supposed to break but the bridles and kite did, then those connectors are just too strong? Not perse the fault of the stitchwork (or bridles)?

Could be an idea to do a breaktest with a flysurfer/ozone connector and pansh connector line..

 

Luckily I have had more succes and been testing my kite as well last weekends:

I got my A15 18m a couple of weeks ago and flew it twice; in 6-8 knots on the beach and on the water in 10 knots, increasing to around 16-19 knots later that day (both speeds according to a website, I had the feeling it was a little less).

6-8 knots is not enough for me, even hard to keep it flying. The lower side would tend to collapse to the middle as well because there was too little wind. Also the kite kept backstalling.

From 10 knots on kiteboarding is easy, even on a regular TT and weighing 90kg. I had no issues whatsoever, kite was steady as a rock, huge difference with my 6-8 knots session! Although the 18m is (very) slow to turn even on a 65cm bar it was easy to generate enough power to get going.

Going upwind is easy as well, if you can get on your board you can go upwind. I had the feeling that it likes apparent wind, although it could have been some gusts. When you gain speed, it just wants to keep going forward. Makes it even harder to turn, but it could've been me being a bit overpowered as well.

All in all, I am very happy so far, can't wait to get back on the water and test it some more!

[Jussi Kaijasilta]

Well it first broke right side back line and then it looped few times and all the other connections broke loose. It was mostly in the air.