Good value kites for teaching - recommendations anyone?

[robmueck]

I've been buggying for 6-7 years now and have decided to take my obsession to a new level. I've bought a landcruiser troopy and am about to embark on a business teaching people how to use traction kites and buggys. I find this satisfying, now I want to see if it will pay and am prepared to try the whole liability/insurance/marketing/cash flow business thingy out. Any recommendations on kit?

I have found in the past that the easiest, and safest way to teach buggying is to do it in soft sand. People start their experience being dragged down wind. There is enough buggy resistance in soft sand to enable them to keep the kite in the air, and by going down wind the power of the kite is self moderating.

As their confidence grows they can, by degrees, start tacking across the wind.

What I am after is recommendations on good value for money kites considering:

1. These kites will be forever crashing. So something robust, repairable, relaunchable, …

2. Something easy to use. Stable, low aspect ratio, …

3. Safe. Backstrap rather than harness.

4. I’ll need to cover a wide range of wind strengths and pilot weight.

5. I am looking to cater for up to 8 students at a time.

I love my C-Quads. They are responsive and I have found most people learn on them alright. The only issue is that I am forever repairing the leading edge or one of the other spars keeps popping through the kite. I haven’t really tried any of the main brands/models. I have an Ngen, its OK, a two stringer so that makes it easier to learn. Yet I am going to have to buy a fair bit of kit. I suppose I can do it piecemeal and experiment but I would appreciate recommendations.

I have a few buggies. I don’t think the type of buggy itself is critical, as long as it is the right size.

Anyone got any second hand kit that would be useful for teaching they want to part with? Any recommendations on the appropriate off the shelf kites?

[mojo]

Are you looking for a lower cost to get yourself up and running, or spending more on the kite in the hope of long term value for money?

I have no experiences with flexi /ozone range. but don't think you could beat the busters if you're looking at a stable learners kite. A good package with the buster2s as well now, although you will need to get a better ground stake probably and purchase the backstrap seperatly. They seem to be able to take a bit of punishment as well.

[max]

cant say i have had much experiance in the kite world but my first kite was a 5m HQ beamer, they are reasonable cheap, and they are built like a brick shithouse. i found the beamer to be very well made, so on the subject of robustness HQ kites seem to be a good kite.

you might wanna check them out yourself as i'm not all that experianced with kites.

cheers

Max Yarra

[nigel]

I've been buggying for 6-7 years now and have decided to take my obsession to a new level. I've bought a landcruiser troopy and am about to embark on a business teaching people how to use traction kites and buggys. I find this satisfying, now I want to see if it will pay and am prepared to try the whole liability/insurance/marketing/cash flow business thingy out. Any recommendations on kit?

I have found in the past that the easiest, and safest way to teach buggying is to do it in soft sand. People start their experience being dragged down wind. There is enough buggy resistance in soft sand to enable them to keep the kite in the air, and by going down wind the power of the kite is self moderating.

As their confidence grows they can, by degrees, start tacking across the wind.

What I am after is recommendations on good value for money kites considering:

1. These kites will be forever crashing. So something robust, repairable, relaunchable, …

2. Something easy to use. Stable, low aspect ratio, …

3. Safe. Backstrap rather than harness.

4. I’ll need to cover a wide range of wind strengths and pilot weight.

5. I am looking to cater for up to 8 students at a time.

I love my C-Quads. They are responsive and I have found most people learn on them alright. The only issue is that I am forever repairing the leading edge or one of the other spars keeps popping through the kite. I haven’t really tried any of the main brands/models. I have an Ngen, its OK, a two stringer so that makes it easier to learn. Yet I am going to have to buy a fair bit of kit. I suppose I can do it piecemeal and experiment but I would appreciate recommendations.

I have a few buggies. I don’t think the type of buggy itself is critical, as long as it is the right size.

Anyone got any second hand kit that would be useful for teaching they want to part with? Any recommendations on the appropriate off the shelf kites?

Don't understand the idea of learning in soft sand.

You will need buggyies with bigfoot tyres if your teaching in the soft sand, these are $100 or more per tyre!! And you want 8 students! 24 tyres!

The thing to learn about being dragged down wind is that you are not placing tention on the kite lines, hence it falls from the sky. Kites need tention on the lines in order to fly. Basic kite theory 101.

Teaching the students this theory will go along way towards helping them kite better.

Infact, I would rather sit your group of 8 down and show them some theory for a while.

This can cover the basics, kite safty, kite handling, and where not to stand!

It also saves you telling each one of the 8 individualy later on out out in the field, which means they spend more time flying, rather than waiting for you to finish with another student.

Just yourself???? With 8 novices on buggyies??

Can you watch 8 people when one needs help sorting the kite out? Or for you to get them another kite?

What about the guy on the buggy who is heading down the beach and doesn't know how to stop or turn around, and is going to make it to the end of the 5km long beach soon?

Jumping in a buggy before you know much about the power of a kite, or how to fly one, is only asking for trouble.

Most places (look them up on the net to see how they structure their courses) offer one hour classes on just learning to fly traction kites.

Buggying has far more petiential for injury than kitesurfing, you don't have to stand up on a board.

Buggyies will keep rolling, and if the person doesn't know what to do they can't just drop into the water and come to a stop. The're even more unlikly to jump out of a moving buggy!

No mention yet of safty equipment???

Helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, ankle covering boots?, gloves, the list could go on.

Teaching 8 people might look good on the books, but actually doing it is another matter.

Get 8 family members and/or friends down the beach, go ahead and teach them.

This is what you'll want to do to learn how to run your classes.

As for kites: Do you want ones that will last a season, or last longer?

Getting two seasons out of a kite worth $600 is cheaper than only getting a single season out of a $400 kite.

Using four line foils is the only way to go in my books.

The advantage of being able to relaunch, and mount kite killers is not to be over looked.

I would not let people fly with back straps or harnesses till they know what they are doing. They will know what their doing when they don't need the kite killers.

Do you wish to look like a professional kite instructor, or just a guy doing it for some extra cash??

Having all the kit the same looks neat and professional.

Not having one kite the same style or brand as the others looks a bit backyardish to me.

Anyway the kites would be tax deductable!!! Same with the buggyies!!

Go fly any and every four line beginers foil you can get your hands on.

Not always is the cheapest, the cheapest.

[Angus]

Whoa, 8 buggys to one instructor. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. Added to the fact that you would most likely be negligent if anything went wrong.

Basic Rules of Negligence.

1: You must have had a duty of care^ towards a plaintiff/victim.

2: You have to breached that duty of care.

3: There must be a connection between the breach of care and the harm.

^Duty Of Care: A person owes a duty of care to another when the reasonable person would foresee that the other will be exposed to the risk of injury if the particular acts or omissions are continued.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence I realise that this article is in reference to British law. However I feel what I have stated above is the same as Australian Law. Basically that Wikipedia article was the easiest to access

Okay, I understand that you will need to have your Students sign a Waiver form. However that still won't cover you if you are negligent.

My understanding is, the moment you start instructing them you owe them Duty of Care. So that is requirement number 1. (so far nothing done wrong)

My main concern is that if anyone was hurt then it is quite likely that you would be found to have Breeched your Duty of care as it's reasonably foreseeable that a ratio 8 beginners to one instructor is dangerous. And that very simple actions such as lowing your ratios weren't taken to fix this. So that Requirement No. 3 followed by Number 2

Anyway, I'll stop rambling now and let someone else comment about Public Liability to all those around you.

Not to mention all the added hassle and cost of cleaning your equipment because you plan on using it at the beach.

My only advice as equipment is concerned is don't by a kite that has mesh across the opening of the baffles. Simply put, both wet and dry sand seems to be able to get in to the kite, but only dry sand can come out of the kite.

This is a serious issue if your beginners are ever likely to drop their kites in the water.

P.S. buy Wheel Barrow wheels, instead of official buggy wheels.

[Angus]

Oh as for Kites, sadly the Skytiger isn't in production anymore.

But 8 Skytigers in the Air at once would have so much retro appeal (colours and shape).

Skytigers are still great kites to learn on.

[.Joel]

My only advice as equipment is concerned is don't by a kite that has mesh across the opening of the baffles. Simply put, both wet and dry sand seems to be able to get in to the kite, but only dry sand can come out of the kite.

I completely disagree with this, after 3 yrs of flying, both kites with and without the mesh, give me the mesh any day of the week.

I have now seen 4 kites will small nics on the leading edge, newbies owning them and dragging them upside down. I have had numerous newbies on my kites, and do similar and not once has it ripped my kite.

Secondly, if you are buying a reputable brand, then most kites now have the velcro zips on the trailing edge to release the sand.

After time the mesh gets a couple of frays in it over a year of it being dragged around, but it stops things getting into your kite like shells etc, and ripping it. Or twigs and sticks on an oval.

For a learners kite if you want cheap Feed The Rat kites are cheap, and I have seen Nick and John, and their instructors using them for lessons. If you want something that is a bit better built then the Buster II is good, if you want something that is better again then the Flexifoil Rage kites are top notch. But with everything there is a price to go with it, so your expenditure is up to you.

Regards,

Joel

[Angus]

I agree Joel that the mesh is probably an advantage in many cases. I hadn't considered the Velcro openings that are on some kites.

On second thoughts if you did have say 8 beginners flying kites with mesh. Then all you would need is a spare kite in the car in case it did get dunked in wet sand. I suppose you would have to lots of spare kites anyway. So overall it's probably not a big issue, just the occasional annoyance.

[.Joel]

I agree Joel that the mesh is probably an advantage in many cases. I hadn't considered the Velcro openings that are on some kites.

On second thoughts if you did have say 8 beginners flying kites with mesh. Then all you would need is a spare kite in the car in case it did get dunked in wet sand. I suppose you would have to lots of spare kites anyway. So overall it's probably not a big issue, just the occasional annoyance.

Still not sure where you getting this wet sand idea from. 1st and foremost for it to be wet sand it would have to be cross-offshore or straight offshore. In either situation you aren't going to want to be teaching students in an offshore wind.

Secondly, The mesh is just that, mesh. A shake and its off. And if the sand is big enough to get stuck in the mesh (this is sounding more ridiculous as i go on ), then it won't get into the kite. But yeah, someone getting 3m of sand from one point of a mesh leading edge to the other in one hit is a world first. My guess would be is that it would be as popular as that Eric Eck kiteboarding video (aka tophat).

Personally i think if someone has the ability to get so much sand into a kite that it wont fly in one session then they should consider a career in an excavating company.

Regards,

Joel

[robmueck]

Thanks for the feed back. Please, if any one has a comment I would welcome it.

I'd like to clarify that I am not doing this for profit. I am looking for a financially sustainable way to develop my obsession into my lifestyle.

I want to make safety a priority.

Pre flight theory is important. A little knowledge goes a long way sometimes. The lessons will of course be best remebered from putting them into practice.

I like the idea of a hotch potch of kites. With experience I may come to favour a kite for teaching but I would like to experiment with what is out there. I also think that four string foils are the way to go. I think it helps in learning about the aerodynamics of the kite.

With the ratio of students to teacher, yes 8 to 1 wouldn't work. What I had in mind is that once there was more than say 5 then a second "teacher" would come along. My experience has been that with a group not everyone wants to fly at once. People enjoy watching others, assisting others and having a break.

The idea of using standard wheels is because they don't travel well in soft sand. I have found that the most common frustration of people learning to buggy is that they struggle to get the direction of the tack right and usually end up going downwind, sometimes backwards, with the kite falling from the sky and the lines tangled around the wheels. Put the buggy in soft sand with standard wheels and the buggy doesn't continue to roll when the tension comes out of the lines. Beginners can then get the buggy rolling downwind by dropping the kite into the window a bit. As soon as the buggy moves the tension comes out of the line and the buggy stops quickly and the kite can bbe kept in the air. They repeat this process until they learn to keep the tension in the lines by not heading straight down wind but at a bit of a cross wind tack. By degrees they learn to take the side ways pull and the rear end drift. When they have the experience and confidence then they can move to the hard sand, or if I buy some, the bigfoots.

Thanks for the legal lesson. I want to learn more. I will study the site that been linked.

[Longbow]

How about some non pull kites to have them lean the basics on, before moveing on to the power?

[.Joel]

How about some non pull kites to have them lean the basics on, before moveing on to the power?

Lets give them dummies and bibs while we at it too....

Really, I think people should be taught on a 3m kite in low winds. So they get the feel for the kite and appreciation for power.

Secondly, by people's nature they want to have as fewer lessons as possible. So drawing it out on and on isn't going to get you class members.

Regards,

Joel

[Longbow]

Perhaps i was thinking of saveing the kites from the babies, and trying to make more money...maybe thats just the way i am.

[Angus]

Joel, I never said anything about using the buggy and getting a wet kite.

When first learning to use a kite you shouldn't be thrown into a buggy. You should be on foot. In this instance an on shore is often the worst wind possible. When using a buggy want an onshore as you tack to and fro across the wind. But when on foot, you have a tendency on drifting down wind. Particularly if the kite goes in the "power/danger zone" and the kite flies dead down wind.

So yes, you are fully correct Joel, you would be in a bad state if your kite was wet enough that it wouldn't fly in an onshore breeze. But if the breeze is blowing the length of the beach then it's a different story.

I don't mean that all the kites should be free of mesh. I am just pointing out that if a beginner was on foot in a wind running the length of the beach the kite may get wet. It's then a long process of undoing the lines and hanging the kite out to dry so the sand will come out. Wet sand DOESN'T shake out through mesh.

It's a minor detail. But could save some hassle.

[.Joel]

It's a minor detail. But could save some hassle.

Nor does it get in there, if it can't get out, it can't get in to begin with.

I'm not sure what you want with the wind though, would you teach in an onshore or offshore ?

/goes back to fragging around with the mesh on his up and coming gual

Regards,

Joel

[Angus]

It's a strange concept but wet sand finds a way of getting in, just not out. Dry sad will fall out though.

If there are no buggies being used then I would prefer a wind that runs the same direction as the beach does. So neither on-shore or Off-shore.

Depending on the location I may prefer an off shore as I would prefer loosing a kite out to sea than a kite blowing into power lines.

Offshore could equal a lost kite.

Onshore could equal a lost kite, damaged power lines, bad reputation to the sport, possibly a death.

This isn't so important with the usage of kite killers and if there was an instructor beside every kite in the air. Kite surfing lessons are generally one on one for a reason.

[robmueck]

Joel, up until this thread I have found your contributions really valuable. No need to counter someone else's opinion, just provide your own. I am worried your robust replys are going to put off people from giving me their contributions.

To clarify about the direction of the wind. The venues I had in mind make the direction of the wind less critical. The dunes of the Stockton bight, for example, can easily give a couple of kilometres of downwing hazard free space no matter what the wind direction. In soft sand thats plenty.

No point people sitting in a buggy until they know how to control a kite. My usual routine is to go through terminology: leading edge, trailing edge, downwind, upwind, wind window, brake lines. Then I get them to try and keep the kite at the top of the window. Once they can do that then I get them to move the kite around the edge of the window, slowly and to a limited extent at first then progressively further and faster. Then I get them skidding on their arse. I get them to sit on the ground, feet wide apart, drop the kite into the window by pulling on both the brake lines and then letting the brake lines go. A little at first and then progressively more each time. This is leading them up to skiing/skidding standing up, an important skill to learn to avoid the hazard of galloping downwind under power. Next is learning to loop the kite. Learners panic as soon as the kite heads towards the ground. They need to learn to stay committed to the turn and that the kite flies just fine with the lines crossed. They also need to learn to fly the kite by pulling on the handles not turning them like a steering wheel. Once they can compentently loop a kite then its time to sit in the buggy. If it is light winds then they will have to learn to turn the kite down and across the window rather than doing leading edge up turns. Then as I mentioned above its on to buggy skills.

If someone is a slow learner and it comes to the end of the day, it doesn't hurt to give them a go in the buggy before they have mastered all the kite skills. They will get pulled out of the buggy, dragged downwind and crash the kite. In soft sand with plenty of downwind space its all part of the fun.

[goshen]

Joel, up until this thread I have found your contributions really valuable. No need to counter someone else's opinion, just provide your own.

Yes, but he did have some good points when defending the kites with mesh as to sand getting in them... it's really not an issue.

But back to your original post Rob; I think that it's a great that you are going to do some landkiting instruction.

Using a variety of kites is indeed a good idea. You can start out small, hopefully the lessons you do will pay for more kites! It'll be tough going to make any sort of regular income, but it can certainly subsidise a lifestyle, or a holiday.

To teach on a buggy (we do a few down here); I use a 2m Ozone Fury, 2.5m Peter Lynn Rebel, 3.5m Flexifoil Rage, and (more rarely), a 4m Ozone Access. I've even thrown a student on my 4.9 Blade (light winds) after a while. It's great to see the enjoyment when people fly the kites, and they are continually astounded by how much power they have in their hands.

Good luck.

[.Joel]

Joel, up until this thread I have found your contributions really valuable. No need to counter someone else's opinion, just provide your own. I am worried your robust replys are going to put off people from giving me their contributions.

Sorry Rob, didn't mean to come across that way perhaps something to do with my whole mood yesterday, had a shit day all round. I was actually genuinely interested in how people get these ideas.... there's a borderline between myths and facts, and sometimes second hand info. Thus I am usually genuninely interested in where people get the idea, or if it is / was first hand experiance. Why ? The wichard, I show people my quick release setup and in an instant "oh those don't open under load" bla bla bla. Fair enough, wonder how many of them (usually a thread full of 15 year olds) have actually had one fail, or are just churning regurgitated information. I class that one as a myth, with the recognition that yes they may have jammed in the past, however, according to two people at both yacht shops I frequent the wichard style quick release has more likelyhood of jamming when being used in a "dirty" environment. Completely counter-acting the other claims. These are the reasons I sometimes post back a couple of times wanting to find information.

Secondly, in my opinion (and I hadn't stated this yet) I also wanted to know what winds people generally advise teaching in. Personally I think an offshore wind is about as worse wind as you can possibly try and give a lesson in due to the gusts and lulls. But each to their own.

Once again apologies if it felt challenging, I was genuinely interested and thus pushing the envelope a bit.

Regards,

Joel

[Angus]

I wasn't worried by your comments Joel.

An offshore breeze is more likely to be inconsistent, however any direction can be gusty as well. In in general prefer a breeze running the length of the beach though. Which often produces a breeze that's reasonably clean.

I like Goshen's Idea of starting small and adding kites as you get the money. Also having a range of kites like others have mentioned is good.

[bob]

OK Here are some facts established by my personal experience:

It is easy to fill an NGen with sand by dragging it on a wet beach.

NGens are great in an on-shore wind

A wet, sandy NGen will not fly in any wind direction

Dry sand shakes out.

Wet sand in closed cells is difficult to remove.

All facts I have proven by myself!

Q. Why would you crash a kite upside-down on wet sand?

A. Same reasons you crash a kite upside-down on dry sand.

Q. Why would you drag a kite on wet sand?

A. To try to escape from the bloody waves.

[.Joel]

Q. Why would you drag a kite on wet sand?

A. To try to escape from the bloody waves.

This is really something this thread. It has opened my eyes to just how many of you actually fly a kite in an offshore. I for one generally never fly in an offshore. The first time in the past 3 yrs that I flew in an offshore was at Ocean Grove last week.

I don't know, maybe i'm too picky, spoilt, fussy, who knows... but I don't fly in an offshore. And not for a safety reason, I just don't like the wind in an offshore. So it has been rather educating to find out just how many people actually do fly in offshores.

If the wind is blowing down the beach, once again i'm a fussy bugger and don't fly. Thus I have taken up kiteboarding for the days when I whinge about the wind not being up to par

Regards,

Joel

[Angus]

And there you have answered why you don't understand.

Some people will fly on a particular set day no matter what the wind.

Some people have the ability to fly when ever the wind is right.

And finally Some people are able to change their sport depending on the wind, eg. you with Kiteboarding.

If you were organising lessons for kite buggy but the wind suddenly changed direction, should you then tell your clients that the lesson has now been changed to kite surfing.

A change in direction doesn't mean you have to put your kite down.

Kite surfing lessons are often canceled due to incorrect wind, which is understandable for safety reasons. (Eg. Kite surfing lessons are often only conducted in an on shore wind.) Cancelling lessons annoying financially on the instructor and annoying for the participant.

But if you initial instructing session is just going to be on the sand with a small foil kite then you would be mad as the instructor to be "picky" with the winds.

I am not suggesting anything unsafe, all I am saying is that a lack of an on-shore isn't the end of the world.

[goshen]

The venues I had in mind make the direction of the wind less critical. The dunes of the Stockton bight, for example, can easily give a couple of kilometres of downwing hazard free space no matter what the wind direction.

You see guys; that's it right there. It's not the fact that the wind is 'offshore'; but where exactly the wind has been before it gets to you. For example you don't fly kites at St Kilda in a NE wind - it's just no fun. Likewise at Sandy Point main beach in an offshore is generally not fun - but get all the way down to the river mouth and it smooths off considerably.

Remember the 7 x distance rule... Eg, if an obstacle is 10m high, then you must be 70m away for the wind to smooth out. Sometimes you can use longer lines to get the kite up higher; but that only works for relatively low obstacles.