Purpose built and designed freestyle buggy

[frayz]

Okay guys, i know this has been asked before but i want to bring this up again.

 

A friend of mine is a long established motorsport engineer and racecar fabricator. He has done all of the current fab work on my buggy and i have sent a few local guys to him for various buggy welding/fab jobs etc.

 

Here is is website if youre interested, http://www.xworkss.com/index.htm

 

Time again he keeps saying how our buggies are poorly built for what levels pro freestyle is now pushing them to. He has now taken an interest in designing and making something specifically dedicated for freestyle riders.

 

I think we all agree that Rob Hills did a fantastic job on the current Flexi buggy and the geometry is just about perfect for freestyle use. However the grades of materials used in manufacture are quite poor and some areas can clearly be imporved.

 

I know PTW had a similar thread a while back and he quickly realised that to better what we currently have is a huge and difficult task. But i belive i can be done with high quality materials, specialist know how and experience.

 

My question is, what is the most important features that people want in a purpose built freestyle buggy.

 

Strength, light weight, the ability to dismantle it for transporting etc etc.

 

Hope to hear some good input

[benne]

I think you answered your own question mate, for me dismantling is important as I have very little space to keep a bug or transport it, BUT I wouldnt want to sacrifice strength such as the PL folding bug to achieve this!!

 

The flexibug is 7yrs old now, I think you are right that there must be some improvements to be made, no matter how good the current bug is!

 

I like the fact that the flexibug is able to be modified to suit anyones needs within reason, that would be good to keep!

 

And the seat - perhaps a buggybags partnership would come up with something better as I find the std flexibug seat uncomfy!!

 

Lastly price, I have heard flexi would have to charge £800ish for a flexibug in stainless, I wouldnt like to pay quite that much, £450-500 is more my mark!

 

I am surprised flexi never moved the design on (If the scout is as I think, the same design in mild steel!?!?)

[frayz]

Yeah the scout is 99% the same design but in mild steel. I think steel could be a good material, but not mild, im thinking more of high grade steels.

 

As great as it is for corrosion resistance, i dont belive stainless is the way forward. And as for the seat, i agree this needs addressing, however the flexi scout is coming with an all new designed seat that i have personally used and its excellent.

[benne]

I dont think mils steel should be used for anything that will get wet or salty - believe me, after restoring 2 classic cars, rust is not my favourite material!!

 

Isnt the scout buggy a solid unit? Not sure if I would like that either TBH, although it would do away with the need for a belly pan!!

 

Could you consider a steel alloy? something with high tensile strength but good corrosion resistance and light weight?

[frayz]

We'll have to see what works best with regards to material strength/weight ratio.

But agree that high grade steel alloys will be investigated

[benne]

Keep us posted too fella!!

 

Any chance of a hard anodised finish? Would be great to not have the std silver!!

 

And alloy wheels too, and fluffy dice.....ok just the wheels, plastic ones are UGLY!!

[frayz]

Keep us posted too fella!!

 

Any chance of a hard anodised finish? Would be great to not have the std silver!!

 

And alloy wheels too, and fluffy dice.....ok just the wheels, plastic ones are UGLY!!

 

Different coatings will certainly be looked at for maximum durability. As for the wheels, alloy would be flash, however the standard wheels offer exceptional strength/weight and at a very low cost.

 

I belive weight savings can be made on the wheel assemblies however i think the actual hub is not where our attentions need focusing.

 

Thankyou for your input sir

[benne]

huh, I really want alloys!!! Will your mate make me a set of one offs then?? HAHA

[Bertie]

why not 4130 cromoly as used on many bicycles?

[benne]

Isnt CM just as heavy as normal steel though? Granted it is tough as old boots and will weld nicely!!!

 

I think the hardest choice with this will be the strength vs weight, as far as dismantling goes, I am the only person who struggles to store and transport a flexibug due to living city centre and having a really small car!! Most people would be fine (I am moving out of town next year so size wouldnt concern me at all then!!)

[frayz]

I think the first protos will be made solid for maximum strength. Once tested and happy we will look into ways of making it dismantlable whilst adding as little weight as possible without reducing strength.

 

Im making an assumption here that most freestyle guys have their frames welded and so limits the ammount the buggy can be dismantled anyway?

 

Any input on this chaps?

[benne]

I havent seen a welded frame, but heck, why not?

 

The flexibug is a great starter buggy and the scout will continue on for this purpose!!

 

I would go for a full on freestyle bug and focus design for that, then if possible, adapt for everyone else!!

 

really looking forward to seeing these, seems only race bugs get custom build attention, nice to see something different! Kudos to you and your mate!!

[Richy303]

Frayz: i'd say most jumpers have their frames welded, I have for many years and all those I ride with have too. This reduces the twist in the frame, preserving power without loosing the suspension effect in the side rails - both very important. You could consider making the forks stiffer as they twist under load too.

 

Re seat: Don't forget there are 2 and 3 point lap belts out there. The 3 point is the most challenging for set designs, but clearance on the side rails is needed for the 2 point too.

 

I'd have reservations about alloy wheels. I ride some very challenging surfaces (the reef at Westward Ho! for one) and can't see how alloy wheels would deal with this and other forces generated during sketchy landings. In 10 years I haven't had a plastic wheel fail! They may not be the most eye catching but they are bomb proof!

 

Exciting stuff - I'll be watching this thread with interest.....

[SirBolts]

Great stuff that you've started to experiment!

My thoughts:

Have you thought about changing the location of the attachment point of the siderails and back axle?

If you could take the load off the middle of the axle and put closer to the ends then the back axle bending story would be solved. It would work as a spacer if the attachment points were at the ends what means saving weight with a thin wall axle (maybe only 1kg, but every gramms count in the end...)

I think you can't make any lighter than a plastic rim, unless composit...but would that make a big difference compared to the added investment?

[lewis1404]

Seat Must be form BuggyBags!!

[bartiebat1599968741]

I'm currently testing a new Peter Lynn Freestyle Composite Prototype buggy. You may think meh, a girl testing a buggy, but I'm clumsy, randomly forget to redirect mid session & have broken 2 Flexifoil buggys in 3 months!

 

So far the buggy twists nicely in the air in places that it needs to, then reforms it's shape on landing - it seems to really work! I found a weak spot at the weekend so have fed that back to the designers/engineers & they in turn sent me to an engineers in the UK to change it (it should be back today) but it was comforting that it wasn't the usual back axle/side rails/down tube issues that I've had before. All being well it should be with me at Blackpool - grab me & have a go, see what you think. It's still very much in the prototype stage, but it would be wicked if it does work out & be really cool if your guy goes down the almost opposite route to see which ideas work the best. At Airboss last weekend there were a couple of other designs there too that seem to be working well by adding actual suspension rather than composite.

 

I'm having to go down the route of reinforcing my Flexifoil buggy as I need a back up in case this one ever needs to go back to New Zealand, but I don't feel hugely comfortable about riding something that doesn't give - I'd rather the buggy breaks than I do but I just can't afford all the spare parts anymore!!

 

Exciting times ahead & hopefully some wicked new freestyle bugs that don't need modding for us all in the future - bout bloody time!

[frayz]

Rich - agree, wheels may not be pretty but they are virtually bombproof and very cost effective.

 

Sirbolts - moving the rear rail pickups further out was already one of the ideas, but cheers for the great input.

 

Agree the seat will take some work, i think the new Flexi seat/Robs proto is fantactic so will probably be losely based around that. As for the Buggybags seat. I personally dont like how fussy they look and that the rings can slip under impact.

 

However im not ruling anything out. At the moment its the frame that is important. Once we get a bomproof frame with the right geometry, we can make the seat to suit it best.

 

I do think that composites could well be the furture of our buggies but we are yet to see some "properly" engineered composites. By that i mean ones that have different bound/rebound rates so they dont act like a spring and disipate energy rather than store and release it.

 

Developing high performance composites is hugely expensive and we would need a mega budget to do it. A budget i dont have right now lol. But agree that anyone looking to invest R&D time into freestyle buggying is only good news for pushing our sport.

 

Some fantastic feedback here guys. Keep it coming

[bartiebat1599968741]

Get in touch with Rob - you can buy a freestyle buggy off him via the Turbulence website for £1250 - bit pricey but might have ideas there you'd like to incorporate. Also what about Stealth riders - Appo, Chris Hill etc - was there enough of a differnce to the Flexi in that or maybe again something that could be added?

[SirBolts]

However im not ruling anything out. At the moment its the frame that is important. Once we get a bomproof frame with the right geometry, we can make the seat to suit it best.

 

Just an other thought regarding the seat-frame issue. It might be not so separate thing as a well designed webbing (part of seat) can give an extra reinforcement to the frame with an additional low weight compared to steel reinforcement. Study the Stealth buggy (I know, it's boring to come up again with this one) how cleverly an extra reinforcement added under the seat (also fix the seat) to stop the siderails stretch at a heavy landing.

But this option requires a specially designed seat which direction you might not want to go. Thought to share it though

 

Your design investigation, development, fabrication is pretty exciting. Keep us updated, post pics as you'll start welding steels!

[eeyore]

First off, well done on taking up the challenge and I hope you do well at it.

 

For me if you looking at a light strong metal have a look in to some of the Ti and aluminium alloys. We use a lot in our industry on aircraft and well… its strong (but expensive!) And I totally agree the real way forward is using composites… we do a large number of items out of it here at our site again the loads and flexing they can do is unreal… but as you quite rightly say its expensive to do and even harder to get right. (its something I've always been interested in though!)

 

I think it as barbiebat to commented on safety a bit. I would also urge you to look at deeper in to this as your designs progress. Having a light strong ridged frame counts for nothing if the pilot is in a wheelchare due to a hard landing, spinal compression and not walking again.

A bit ago there was talk of a foam that was used in glider seats that could be used to help protect the rider… maybe this could be used in the seat?

Anyway good luck and hope you do well… we want pictures of it all as you go along!

Infact I've just had an idea for a way some of the loading from normal bumpyness could be taken out… need to scetch something out...

 

 

Eeyore

Hoof Design Bureau;)

[frayz]

All great input guys. Thanks so much. Im off to Xworks tonight to sit down and talk through some design ideas

[tom1599968574]

For me if you looking at a light strong metal have a look in to some of the Ti and aluminium alloys.

 

 

id go ti personally, not just for the strength to weight but the elastic properties. Some grades will take a massive bending load without permanent deformation - ideal for a big landing! Ive got some military grade stuff here that you can bend massively and it still springs back! Also pretty corrosion resistant.

 

stainless is very brittle - mild steels are much stronger whioch is why most engineered components use mild - but then you have the obvious plating/powder coating issues. There are better steel grades...but you get what you pay for...!

[frayz]

Ti is a great choice, however who here is actually going to fork out for a Ti buggy?

This needs to be affordable to most of us and the materials alone would see us well over £1000. Not to mention welding it properly to the levels we would require would mean welding it in a gas chamber.

Edited September 24, 2009 by frayz

[Afro1599968737]

foam for a seat...look at aerogel

[Kitebuggybagman]

.

 

Agree the seat will take some work, i think the new Flexi seat/Robs proto is fantactic so will probably be losely based around that. As for the Buggybags seat. I personally dont like how fussy they look and that the rings can slip under impact.

 

 

 

Heres what we came up with for seat reinforcement,

A pretty hefty machine is needed to sew through the thicknesses, seat should not stretch too much though

 

http://www.buggybags.co.uk/pages/seats/Std%20Class%20Seat/buggybags%20mk5%20std%20class%20seat%20(4).JPG

 

Slippage on the buckles does not happen on the race seats as we dont leave the ground, if anything they tighten up too much!!! lol