Spook Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Ok, I like foils because they're a bit softer and they're not as quick. That a good answer? If I had a super fast turning, super lifty, super hard Bow or something similar I'd kill myself. Quote
Noo Noo Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 More importantly Where is Rasga? Started this thread and done a runner??? :D Quote
RB Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 I don’t think anyone will ever be happy until they invent 1 kite that is True 100% de-power Open cell with no bridal No inflation needed Wind range of 4 mph to 40 Hugh lift and hangtime Voice activated safety Makes the bloody tea! Basically like a frenzy without a bridal with all the atributes of an arc, without pre-inflation Pls do not say it "its not possible" I know….. But hey perhaps in 15 years time? Until then……. The arguments will continue Where is that popcorn Quote
Tone Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 No chance, not a puppy... in light winds, the big depowerable foils are simply too heavy. Yes, Blades work a treat, but beyond that, a light SLE will get you going when Sabres etc will hardly fly. Dee are you actually being serious? with all due respect you are making yourself look silly. weigh a 17m speed and weigh a 20m waroo. see the weight difference. from what i understand they have a pretty close starting point, but someone that owns both kites has tested them back to back and i think, and i mean "think" the speed won. but the waroo was faster to turn. bah. i don't want to start flaming but this thread has turned silly. Quote
kitegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 I don’t think anyone will ever be happy until they invent 1 kite that is True 100% de-power Open cell with no bridal No inflation needed Wind range of 4 mph to 40 Hugh lift and hangtime Voice activated safety Makes the bloody tea! Basically like a frenzy without a bridal with all the atributes of an arc, without pre-inflation Pls do not say it "its not possible" I know….. But hey perhaps in 15 years time? Until then……. The arguments will continue Where is that popcorn Lol, ya, tea making abilities would deffo be on my 'desirable attributes' list! Dunno why no inflation is so desirable, on cold days it gets the blood pumping, it stops your kite drowning or getting over-heavy, and if you can't be ars*d with it, you can buy gadgets that do it for you... But ya, tea is good.. hope the designers are listening @KaptainKremmen - noooo, hindering was not at all what I was saying.. cor, communicating on the net is hard eh? What I meant was, considering the reasons people have suggested on this thread, as to why an SLE would not meet their needs.. I just wondered if designers focussing on these issues i.e durability, solo launch, etc would reduce the need further for depowerable foils.. If Flexi brought out a reasonably cheap, light, fast, almost 100% depowerable kite that gave great lift, could be used for all kite disciplines and was easy to solo launch/land, would you not want it? @Tone - ya, point taken. To be fair I was thinking more of the Sabre/Frenzy and, yes, have seen the Speed work in bugger all wind.. dunno that it would be in the 'good all round kite' category though.. Mind you, if it came to needing a 20M kite, I think I'd go wakeboarding Don't know if I dare go the Ho now, I'll need me bullet proof vest me thinks! Dee Quote
Dibz Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 My2Cents... i think the main sticking point i have with SLE's Hybrids and LEI's in general on land, is the big hard inflated leading edge and the lack of slack line recovery. Leading edge: I would hate to hit the ground or someone with that leading edge if (big 'if' i know) it were all to go so horribly wrong where i ended up in a position with people in range of getting hit by the kite or the kite flying powered at the ground. Slack line recovery: on the whole from what i have seen with single skins, if you get slack lines for whatever reason (trying something new, forgetting to redirect or landing too under the kite etc etc) and the kite starts to hindenburg, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be able to get out of the buggy and run back in time to catch it. With a foil, it usually floats back in the window, worst case settling on the ground in a heap that can or can't be recovered without getting up or refilling and reshaping mid window where it can be flown back out without touching the ground (the second tends to happen more than the first i must admit, which i love as i am lazy, hence buggying ) The 3rd point i will make, is one that i don't think anyone has made... I enjoy buggying, i enjoy buggy jumping. Jumping wise I enjoy the rush of the take off, then trying to do something in the air and landing smoothly. So what i enjoy is being 'intentional', in control and trying to add a technical element. I am not a 'go big or go home' type, So the LEI approach doesn't really interest me atm (granted i haven't ever used one in the buggy). I don't want MASSIVE lift, i just want enough to do what i want to do but I want a few safety options if stuff goes wrong. To this end, depower foils have served me very well for the last 18 months, yeah i don't go as big as the guys on blades, but if anything was to go wrong where i needed (or couldn't spare) both my hands, but didn't want the kite powered or flying/floating away from me, depower wins over fixed. If the wind speed increases while i am riding to the point where i no longer feel comfortable, the trim strap is my friend and i can keep flying within my limits without a pitstop. I think a lot of the arguments put forward both for and against LEI's on land, SLE's for sport progression or the use of depower foils etc, are very much the same arguments we used to justify buying the kite in the first place. Personally 12m depower open-cell foils are the only ones that i have found are slow to redirect (but i don't do kiteloops). Even then, i have had a lot of decent air and awesome fun on my 11.5 sabre. Quote
Neebie Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Ok, I like foils because they're a bit softer and they're not as quick. That a good answer? If I had a super fast turning, super lifty, super hard Bow or something similar I'd kill myself. snap Quote
just do it Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Silly thread but it proves one thing. Seems like everyone who gets involves with Best has to turn into a wank.r! Quote
kitegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Ok, I like foils because they're a bit softer and they're not as quick. Bit like yourself then Spook You're wrong though, you wouldnt kill yourself, you'd grin from ear to ear Dibz, I can see where you're coming from, deffo (re: getting out of buggy etc), and yes, I did have one instance of said 'falling out of sky' kite... but also had stacks of those instances on my depower foils.. I just think a lot of the reasons for not using SLEs on land (except the LE bashings) were many of the reasons why people originally weren't keen on depowerable kites full stop when they first came out.. reads quite strangely 4 years down the line to hear people using the same reasons to justify depower foils, whilst edging against pump-ups. Will be interesting to see what goes on in the coming years Quote
crut Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Ok, I like foils because they're a bit softer and they're not as quick. You're wrong though, you wouldnt kill yourself, you'd grin from ear to ear How can you say that?!?! You are asking why people are making their choice, you get an answer and then tell them their opinion is wrong! My two cents, I'm sure that once the bow/sle design has moved on a few more years and the design evolution has slowed down slightly, people are likely to be more receptive. At the moment I am curious to see where it heads and know I will move onto them at some point but for me, personally, I like mixing it up with my 4.9 blade and my Gs. For others who use de-power foils, for instance the access, to buggy with, they don't want the lift but enjoy the ability to hold down more power and gust munch. They don't want lift, but enjoy the advantages that a de-power foil provides. Quote
RB Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 I still say everyone wants something different for their needs….. Everyone has a different opinion so you cannot say a is the best why would anyone want b…… it comes back to this, someone in a buggy has different needs than a landborder. Even then Landborder a has different wants than landborder b, I like and need lift but not as much as bob down the road. I don’t want to go 30ft up therefore for me high ar aggressive kites are just not needed hence why the P15 went. A lot of people on here swear by arcs, but I love my Sabre to bits, after all I am the one who has to fly it!. I think its impossible to ever arge that a is better than b (generally) if someone asks a direct questions on what is best for them (giving all the facts) then it is more possible to arge the case, but you cannot blanket say a is no good, b is best!. Saying why would anyone want a de-powerable foil is a tad daft. Having owned Blades 3.0, 4.0, 4.9, 6.6, 8.5, Busters 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, Frenzy 7.3, 12.0, Guerilla 9, 13, Bomba 15, Phantom 15 and now sabre 9.5 I can honestly say I have found the best kite "for me"…… not the best performing by any means, the best for me… me…… me….. Me…… and that’s all that counts, I really do not care what comes out, its awsome performance etc as it does not mean it’s the best for me. All of the kites I have had, had their place and on the right day they were all pretty good! On the right day the 6.6 blade imho is still hard to beat even compared to a de-power! Its all down to what someone wants, and needs, for their use…. Tbh I have given in with listening to opinion on whats best as people always think what they have is best and nothing else will do Quote
kitegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 You're wrong though, you wouldnt kill yourself, you'd grin from ear to ear How can you say that?!?! You are asking why people are making their choice, you get an answer and then tell them their opinion is wrong! Mate, I was joking... trying to lighten the atmosphere a bit.. Spook has plenty of friendly jovial banter goin on this forum.. It was intended as such.. My two cents, I'm sure that once the bow/sle design has moved on a few more years and the design evolution has slowed down slightly, people are likely to be more receptive. At the moment I am curious to see where it heads and know I will move onto them at some point but for me, personally, I like mixing it up with my 4.9 blade and my Gs. For others who use de-power foils, for instance the access, to buggy with, they don't want the lift but enjoy the ability to hold down more power and gust munch. They don't want lift, but enjoy the advantages that a de-power foil provides. Yes, I think you're right... we'll see what everyone's on in another 5 years eh? Dee Quote
Skyhooked Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Yes, I think you're right... we'll see what everyone's on in another 5 years eh? Dee woah! thats a pretty heavy claim bruddah! 5 years time we'll all look back on SLEs with a crooked smile - it does seem already that manufacturers are getting onto hybrids now infact, there is even such a thing as the double hybrid - http://www.advance-kites.com/kondor.htm - a c kite that turns into an SLE anyway, back on topic - SLEs faster than a venom2? maybe turning speed wise, but not through the air. the kitespeed record of last winter was set by some bloke on a venom2 on skis, over a frozen lake. can't remember the actual speed 'owever bar pressure is light on arcs. it aint heavy how quick does a kite over land have to be? what does a rider do with a kite over land that is super quick that can't be done with a sabre for example? Quote
raptor Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Why use a depowerable foil? that's the question not which brand or make or style is better than the other. why use a depwerable foil over a fixed foil. mainly you can fly one huge kite in a vast wind range with relative ease. having flown FS speed 10 in 15mph for the first time and felt "safe" iwouldn't do that with a 10.5 blade 3 or a 8.5 biv but there are others that just might Quote
Skyhooked Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 raptor = the question was why do we need depowerabel foils when we have SLE kites, to use on land the threads going all over the place as you can imagine! dee - your comment about foil design slowing up SLE development....where d'ya get that from mate? matt pendle from GK, i'm pretty sure isn't too distracted from his day job by designing foils hehe --- how high do we need to go on land? Quote
RandomJon Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Why use a depowerable foil? that's the question not which brand or make or style is better than the other. why use a depwerable foil over a fixed foil. The question was why use a depowerable foil compared to other depowerables, it stemmed from a post in the sabre2 thread. Noone is doubting that fixed power foils will be around for a long long long time as they are perfect for learning on and blades will always rule the lifting roust Quote
northern jim Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 I'm not going to get too involved in the debate, but it'd be nice not be told what we should be flying every time I talk to another kiter! (Not aimed at you Dee). re: previous post, agree that the Venoms are the fastest kites I've flown on water. (Again, don't mean turning speed) Ollie and I found that the tribal was no match for upwind speed on a lovely cross Solent cruise! Quote
Noo Noo Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 raptor = the question was why do we need depowerabel foils when we have SLE kites, to use on land quote] Because some people prefer them. There - finished.................................... Quote
RandomJon Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 raptor = the question was why do we need depowerabel foils when we have SLE kites, to use on land Because some people prefer them. There - finished.................................... Simplicity is best Quote
Tone Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 i think any high performance kite being deveolped can only futher the fun we have on them. every kite is a little bit like another kite, there is no wonder kite. Quote
Noo Noo Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 Because some people prefer them. There - finished.................................... Simplicity is best Indeed. Have I killed this thread Quote
rasga Posted October 2, 2006 Author Report Posted October 2, 2006 I'm still around gonna dip my toes in the pot later,. . .lets hope i don't got burnt! But might bring up some points that got lost throughout the threadm one relating to SLE safety systems. Quote
kitegirl Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 dee - your comment about foil design slowing up SLE development....where d'ya get that from mate? What I said was this: If depowerable foils were no longer developed though, meaning designers could focus on making better reride, self launching, durability of materials and build on SLE-type designs, whilst also bringing the price of new kit down, wouldn't it be a step forward? Somebody picked up that I was suggesting this meant there was some slowing up elsewhere, that's not what I was saying. What I was trying to establish was, if an SLE came out that addressed the issues people had said were the reasons they dont fly these things, would they then fly SLEs rather thn depowerable foils?? Yes Dom, I know Venoms are awesome, truly I do. I think most kites on the market at the mo are. But, the fixed power foils were always seen as an entrance to the kite scene, with depowerables being a progression.. and now many have gone on to fly LEIs.. then came the SLE.. So, instead of there being 3 stages of progression in kites, there are now 4, with SLE overlapping at least 2 of these.. So, what I'm saying (and not very well by the looks of it) is, if you wanted a kite that could do most things, would you not look to an SLEs rather than depowerable foils? And yes, it was originally in response to Sabre II thread. Dee Quote
Skyhooked Posted October 2, 2006 Report Posted October 2, 2006 maybe the question should be then why do we need SLE kites when we have such loverly foils to choose from? this thread could've been a belter but it goes real sour a few pages back, most of it (not all) is just a load of spouted cobblers (myself included) we're all just consumers arguing about which brand of washing powder to buy Quote
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