Land Access

[tvinson]

Hi,

I'm not sure how many of you are aware that it will be unlikely that Pembrey will be a feasible location this summer. There are a number of reasons for this although generally it's one of land access that will put the dampers on such unorganised weekends as we had last year and the year before.

To rectify this I'm putting a proposal together with the help of a few others and taking it to the PKA EGM at Weston Super Mare on Sat 8th March 7pm. There will be a number of issues being raised. In brief they are:

1.Improve the services on offer

2.Increase membership base

3.Increase the scope of the service

4.Build valuable trusting relationships with local councils

5.Maintain valuable relationships with clubs at all levels

6.Increasing revenue for the Land yacht association

7.Make fundamental changes in administration and operation

These ponts will be relevant to the following:

1.Racing and competitive events

2.Non competitive events

3.Recreational participation

4.Training

I'm now collecting as much information from buggiers and kite boarders across the UK in order to make a valid case to the PKA. To help with this task, a poll has been put up at the yahoo Kitebuggy forum. I'd really appreciate it if you guys and gals would take time out to look at the poll there and answer as many questions as you see fit.

It's gonna be a big job to pull off buth there is hope that the PKA can repair it's poor public image and do soem real good for the people that count.

Thank you

Troy

[Agger]

Good to hear and all the best Troy, I wish you well. Lets all hope you are sucessful and we can all enjoy the benefits. :D :D :D

[fox 2]

the url would be handy

[Flying Funkster]

Bump....

 

but makeit easy if you want votes - give usa direct link would you

[tvinson]

Link,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitebuggy/

[Symo]

I am not meaning to sound critical, but for the majority of the people on this forum the BBC is more than adequate to provide the representation that we require. What are you offering that given enough time and effort we could organise for ourselves under the BBC. For that matter why not form as I have suggested a racing committee as part of the BBC. At the moment the BBC is ideal for all of us who wish to organise a local event that we can run and then label it as "BBC". All the PKA seem to offer is infighting and no representation of recreational buggiers. Also I notice you are trying to gain more recreational membership, surely this is for the BBC, or are you trying to boost membership by stealing theirs?

 

I accept that there must be some form of competitive event for us to take part in, but I resent having to pay for a body that is affiliated to land yachting, which at the moment has the bad image gained from the tragic event in the North West. Much better I believe to decamp from the LYA and reform under the BBC. I am sure Ian would be happy to look into a branch being opened for you. Have you read Ian's statement on why the BBC was set up? If you do you can see the logic is there to provide an umbrella body under which recreational buggy pilots can stage their own events, I can't imagine that it would be that harder for you to leave the LYA and organise the series under the BBC. As it stands you are both under the PKSF so it would make sense to amalgamate resources under one label.

 

More explanation is required. Do you want us to leave the BBC, and provide recreational buggying? Or do you want to stick with just racing? Why would being in the PKA be better than the BBC for the recreational buggiers? What stops you leaving the LYA and forming under the BBC?

 

Symo

[tvinson]

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment, please consider teh 2 questions below:

 

1. Can you tell me which sites the BBC has secured access to on behalf of the membership?

 

2. What schemes do the BBC have for assessing competence in buggy pilots

 

Without 1 the value of the BBC is for insurance only

With 2, it is more likely that clubs would allow associate membership through affiliation.

[Symo]

Harsh,

 

1) The membership is quite capable of orgainising access to beaches, the majority of us are more local than a national association that worries only when it looses the beaches required for its events. Touche.

 

2) By your suggestion, if I lived miles from a kite shop and therefore pilot assesment centre how could i get one? And for that matter does mean I cannot buggy until I do? Heres a nice answer not involving cost to the members of the BBC. A nominated group of experienced individuals with a good spread across the country are licensed to give away a "safe pilot cerrtificate". Cheap to print on a computer. These people give out the certs to individuals who give out more certs to more individuals. All of these are logged on a database to give a national registration system which identifies the BBC number of the certifier and certifiee (sic)(Surely there is someone who can do a quick SQL,PHP or a microshaftUrrgghhh .ASP database, for the BBC from their website). Also at things like the X-Zone events it would mean that large numbers are certified. Not a clean system by a long means but we cannot all afford to buy our equipment then pay to prove ourselves fit to use it or travel to a course miles away either.

 

PS no answer as to why your numbers have fallen or why you are trying to steal membership from the BBC.

[tvinson]

I'm not in the current camp of the PKA and I don't race.

However, in order to continuously improve the equipment available to the sport and its participants there is a need for racing. Racing provides inovation, everyday users provide revenue, equipment improves and filters through to the general user.

 

The current BBC position, as far as I can see from their advertising, is that no further action is being taken until the sport is classified as a national sport. The BBC predict re-opening negotiation early next year.

 

I'm planning to pull some friends and acquaintences together in order to make soem positive moves in the kite worls for all users. I hope to pull this off with the help of the community at large.

 

There's plenty of resistance to change in the PKA already, no further resistance is required. What is required is positive action and encouragement from the community.

 

There is a meetign at Weston Super Mare on March 8th at 7pm, come on down if you're genuinely interested in securing safe and insured land access.

[Poseidon]

The current BBC position, as far as I can see from their advertising, is that no further action is being taken until the sport is classified as a national sport. The BBC predict re-opening negotiation early next year.

 

So with this comment, you make it out to be a negative? The only way the sport can move on is by moving away from Landyhating. I agree that Racing is an important part of the sport, some would say that a sport isn't a sport unless there is some competition. But there is a massive recreational side of the sport. This can't be ignored (and I understand that the PKA are trying to show this)

The BBC is obviously putting a lot of effort into getting Buggying recorgnised as a national sport. The resolution of gaining beach access can then be negociated with the local councils. The stigma lies with the affiliation to the LYA.

[Skud_Mark]

Hi Symo

 

I am one of the 'lucky' people working with Troy on this and I am aa BBC member. In response to your answers to Troy's post, the BBC are not in a position to be able to meet the vast majority of the terms of access that are being imposed by local councils and indeed they would be exceptionally difficult for even an organised recreational event to comply with. There are a number of links on these forums that give the detail, alternatively PM me your e-mail and I'll happily send you a copy.

 

In addition to these terms, local land yacht clubs are the ones who are successfully negotiating access so we will not be allowed to use these beaches unless we are a member of that club. I have personally buggied 3 beaches this year alone with my fourth in two weeks. Having to pay £X for a temporary membership each time I visit a beach is going to rapidly become costly.

 

We are not trying to boost the PKA membership while it is soley concerned with racing as the vast majority of flyers fly for fun and the social aspect of the sport. We want equal rights for everyone regardless of their main activity.

 

At the end of the day, if the PKA continue to refuse to represent the interests of recreational buggiers and other flyers we will have to look for an alternative solution.

 

Troy's post here is trying to gague the opinions of as diverse a group as possible as to what you would like or indeed expect from the PKA. If after completingthe poll (5 mins including registration...) you would like to add any additional comments please feel free to mail either Troy or myself.

 

Your comments regarding certification are welcome and this is something that needs a great deal of thought before anything can be implemented. At the end of the day, there will need to be compromises by both flyers and councils whereby we can reach a middle ground putting the general public (and each other) at minimal risk but retaining access to beaches across the country at no additional or minimal extra cost.

[Skud_Mark]

Originally posted by hoolyman

just my usual irrelevant comment/aside :

 

is anyone looking out for the interests of atb riders? there was talk on here a few months back of a UK kitelandboarding association, with mention of a wbsite and agm... anyone know what happened?

 

too many cooks...?

 

a camel is a horse designed by a committee...?

 

the road to hell is paved with good intentions...?

 

Looking forward to Pendine!

 

Nice quotes hoolyman! Pendine on the 1st 2nd? See you there

 

PS see my post above

[tvinson]

Sure as hell the boarders are actually class 7 lad yachts...and are covered under the same rules as the speed sails. Chriss Moore from Wind and Wheels will kick me if I'm wrong!

 

I say that the class 7 gang can't race cos boards ain't fast, they're groovy and built for freestylin...so...we get a non-competitive event sorted out at Pembrey for them through an associate membership to the local club there and hey presto you get an airing! Having spoken to the yocal who's getting access to Pembrey sorted it's unlikley that an associate membership will be available through the BBC since the BBC offer no method of certification for their members, i.e. the BBC can't say that a member is competent or safe - it's the current climate that brings this on - not me!

 

I've so far received loads of positive feedback from participant acrosss the UK and with Mark's help and the help of others this will be compiled and presented, and feedback will be given. As far as the membership.administration thing is concerned, John Cherry is looking at the problem and solving it with an online interactive resource where you guys will be able to register interest and get loads of info about clubs across the UK. However, this all takes time.

 

Are you in or out?

[burgy]

Originally posted by Symo

Harsh,

 

1) The membership is quite capable of orgainising access to beaches, the majority of us are more local than a national association that worries only when it looses the beaches required for its events. Touche.

 

LMAO. Sorry nothing personal but your having a laugh. However your totaly right about local Clubs being in a better postion to deal with local issues. This is the BBC that provides insurance cover & isnt interested in anything else?

 

2) By your suggestion, if I lived miles from a kite shop and therefore pilot assesment centre how could i get one?

 

There are 2 reasons you might need first is if you want to come racing.(IMO Its nice to know the chap I'm approaching at a closing speed of getting on for 100mph knows what hes doing) Also were finding that more Local Authoritys are requireing a prof of compitance to use there beach. As this is normaly done at the Club in question its not normaly a problem.

 

And for that matter does mean I cannot buggy until I do?

 

Yer, just watch out for the buggy police

 

Heres a nice answer not involving cost to the members of the BBC. A nominated group of experienced individuals with a good spread across the country are licensed to give away a "safe pilot cerrtificate". Cheap to print on a computer. These people give out the certs to individuals who give out more certs to more individuals.

 

Which would make a total mockery of the system. Just cause someone has a peace of paper saying they can buggy doesnt mean they are capable of teaching. I kite to a fairly high standard but I'm crap at teaching newbies.

 

Also at things like the X-Zone events it would mean that large numbers are certified. Not a clean system by a long means but we cannot all afford to buy our equipment then pay to prove ourselves fit to use it or travel to a course miles away either.

 

& whos going to run it? not the BBC at the mo(no offence to Ian & the guys but from what I have seen & heard there not interested)

 

As for the X-Zone, well I can honestly say we dont have the time to run anything like that & as were not affiliated to any national body the Cert would prove nothing.

 

PS no answer as to why your numbers have fallen or why you are trying to steal membership from the BBC.

 

LOL no ones trying to steal members from the BBC, that would be a total waste of time. As you your self have pointed out the PKA is mostly concerned with racing.

 

However Land yacht clubs arnt. At Hoylake we have 67 members & I reckon 20 of them race. The rest just want to enjoy the beach with friends. I reckon youve never been to a Land Yacht Club have you? If you had you'd know there just like us(appart from Brean maybe ) & are stoked to see people out using the beach. They have well established ties with the relavant Orgs (Councils etc) Have loads of experance in running events. Some were to wash your kit off etc, is that a bad thing?

 

Also the PKA get invited through the British Federation of Sand Yachts to the World & Euro Championships. We get lottery funds through them & a voice in a Nationaly Recognised Body. so dItching the Landyachters isnt such an easy equation.

 

If you live noware near a LandYacht site then you have no problems, if however you live on the seafront at Hoylake or down the road from Pembry etc then its prolly something your gona have to get used to.

[Symo]

I appreciate what you are saying Skud but the fact is the PKA fell apart due to both the lack of clear leadership and falling membership. I too am concerned with Buggy's being only allowed if affiliated with a certain club local to that area, but surely it would be better if we were united under one banner. Like you say the PKA resist change, it was formed with land yacht structures (lets face it none of us remotely resemble that mindset ), so of course it fell down. What I want to know is why you cannot form the racing arm of this sport under the BBC?

 

Troys message comes across as "if you don't join you will not be allowed to buggy on any beach ever" which just isn't true on the Lincolnshire coast. The councils here do not need to be told that Buggys and ATB's are not land yachts because we have told them the difference. This brings another issue the BBC allows us to board as well as buggy, and as such if we organise event it can represent the both of the sports under one banner.

 

As for the LYA issue, not be dismissive but they are not looking out for us. There structures and rules are ridiculous if you wanted to organise your own event. Yes they have been useful for providing access to national recognition but we are a much bigger sport now. We do not need them, we need people like yourself and Troy to come forward to represent the BBC at national level. The LYA has clearly got around the ban problem by saying to it's membership clubs that they organise the access to the beach and allow the LYA members to have visiting rights, and we suffered by not having a united front to represent us. I will wager that if you visited towing a land yacht the local clubs would have let you ride for free. Unfortunately it is us and them, we have a far more accessable sport and we literally are overtaking them, they need us rather than us needing them. Plus on a national level the PKSF is visible on TV because of the kite surfing I don't see land yachting featuring that much. Land yachting is no doubt exciting but is not very dynamic to watch, whereas the dual slalom coming up at Mablethorpe is going to be soooooooooo watchable. (PS I am trying to get Transworld sport to cover it). If it goes well I will be trying to organise it into a national event over as many venues as possible. The BBC let me do this under their name because it is so flexible I don't think the PKA would because I would have to have a pre-race brief, an official starter yawn but you get the message.

 

FInal point are you telling me that you don't want us to be members of the PKA not the BBC?

[burgy]

Originally posted by Symo

I appreciate what you are saying Skud but the fact is the PKA fell apart due to both the lack of clear leadership and falling membership.

 

No It didnt.

 

The PKA have been seeing an increase in membership over the last 4 years. the problems have stemed from the apathetic attitudes of a few & the continued assasination of the PKA with in the FED(Britich Landyacht Assoc)

 

Like you say the PKA resist change, it was formed with land yacht structures (lets face it none of us remotely resemble that mindset )

 

Again a totaly uninformed view, but thats OK. I resemble that mindset, so do the rest of the X-Zone & most of my other mates. You only think you dont cause youve never met any Land Yachters. Though you might Know Garath Rowland from Mablethorpe. Next time you see him say thank you for all the help he gave us in organising the X-Zone thing there & the help hes given us in orgainising the next X-zone event at Mablethorpe

 

so of course it fell down. What I want to know is why you cannot form the racing arm of this sport under the BBC?

 

Again the BBC is not & has never been remotely interested in Racing, Ask Ian next time you see him. ONE reason is that to Race against the rest of the world you have to be affiliated to the FED

 

 

Troys message comes across as "if you don't join you will not be allowed to buggy on any beach ever" which just isn't true on the Lincolnshire coast.

 

No he doesnt. however in some places you will be required to join a local club & have no doubt that this "club mindset" is very attractive to councils with a problem.

 

The councils here do not need to be told that Buggys and ATB's are not land yachts because we have told them the difference.

 

WTF! they dont need to be told cause youve told them!

 

This brings another issue the BBC allows us to board as well as buggy, and as such if we organise event it can represent the both of the sports under one banner.

 

The Only LY site you cant Board on is Hoylake & thats Cause the Council dont like it however I hope thats gona change soon.

 

As for the LYA issue, not be dismissive but they are not looking out for us.

 

HAVE YOU ASKED THEM? We did & they have helped everytime

 

There structures and rules are ridiculous if you wanted to organise your own event.

 

No there not there almost identical to the ones we use to get permission for X-Zone events.

 

 

I will wager that if you visited towing a land yacht the local clubs would have let you ride for free.

 

Last weekend Russel Maidment a (buggy)member of Wind & Wheels in Weston (Affiliated to the FED) came for a jolly at Hoylake, for free, with no hassel.

 

Unfortunately it is us and them,

 

He whos with out sin cast the first stone? your perpetuating the problem. not helping it.

 

I don't think the PKA would because I would have to have a pre-race brief, an official starter yawn but you get the message.

 

Well you didnt contact us did you so you dont really know. You know Andy rofers who you spoke to about it? PKA member.

 

FInal point are you telling me that you don't want us to be members of the PKA not the BBC?

 

Dude if all you want to do is have a dubious insurance policy & blat up the beach go join the BBC. If you want to have organised racing & the possability to race in the Worlds & Euros Wait a few weeks till weve sorted it out & join the PKA.

 

Its up to you.

 

Please dont however start slagging me & my mates off cause you dont know the whole story. Now I aint saying the PKA's **** dont smell but there are people whoa re trying to sort it out. Leaving the LYers to it would be foolish. If the Past members of the PKA had sorted it WE could be running the FED. Unfortunately it didnt happen but that doesnt mean it cant & it shouldnt.

 

burgy

[tvinson]

Class 7 requires representation and should be combined into class 8 in terms of events and administration. Competence with class 8 machines is demonstrable through taking a class 8 test. The same should apply to class 7, albeit to a different formula.

 

Staged or incremental testing will go some way to assure local clubs that teh associate membership requested by an outsider/organisation will be executed in a proficient way.

 

If I turn up at a real nice club with great beach and I am able to demonstrate that I have achieved a basic level of competence then the club surely won't have a problem with my associate membership, this has previously been called day sailing under a different set of agreements that the LYA have.

 

Boarders need to be affiliated with the FED to get in on the back this. I just like to reiterate that there is no point in building a new organisation and we are using the PKA as a vehicle to achieve a goal, as it is in a stae of dissarray and therefore offers itself as a prime opportunity to embrace change. If the BBC were in a similar situation then we could use that, however, it isn't so we can't.

 

A great deal of good will come from this, but it will require work. Who has some work to offer?

[tvinson]

Land access may become a problem for you sooner than you think, if it does hooly then drop me a line and see if I got it sorted for you.

[fox 2]

Am i being stupid in saying y do we have to stick with the LYA??

I've read the whole thread and understand some of the comments, but i feel its a shame that kite buggying cannot be recognised as its own sport! We are having sites regulated by another sport. Im sorry but in my opinion our buggies and boards are not land yachts speed sails or whatever they want to call them. I can't see y we cant stand up for ourselves! after all the LYA had to start somewhere so why cant we?

[Agger]

Well done to Troy and burgy I say. if someone doe'snt stick up for us WE WILL ALL lose out, whether you race or are a recreational buggier you should be interested. I am a static flyer and I'm interested.

 

BEST OF LUCK TO ALL INVOLVED IN THE FIGHT TO KEEP IT ALIVE. :D :D :D :D

[tvinson]

There is a class system in place that covers land yachts - mtbs.

A great deal of effort has gone into setting this lot up already, no need to change it because it can and does work. The matters of local/national/international representation are up for consideration and change...and the best (current) way to force some change is though the crumbling PKA. IT can be rebuilt to have a wider scope and offer real benefits to it's membership, rather than just organising races.

 

How about "Pembrey summer MTB freestylin event"

 

We had a show of 50 last year for an unorganised event that took some organisation and it was good. We want to do it again, and I'm sure you do too.

 

We're also working on the information thing and making the sport visible to participants by improving communication.

[Symo]

Sorry Burgy, but I've obviously got the wrong end of the stick. What you read is obviously my impression that I have got from some of the emails on the yahoo group. I do know one or two land yachters (But I don't like to admit this in public). I am not slagging anyone off I am just pointing out what I interpreted from posts. If you are happy to sort out a body that will represent buggys and boards then I will happily join. Yes we should be running the FED, we have more members surely its time for a change.

 

What it appears you are proposing is that unless we get a valid pilot cert we cannot go out on the beach. I suspect most members of this forum learnt through their mates and by trial and error. Not perfect but I know that for them then that was all that was available. I admit that in a race a cert to say you know to turn right when someone is heading toward you is a good thing to have, but the availability of these courses is in small areas and at not insgignificant cost. This needs sorting.

 

We do need a racing body. I like the idea of it (Although I can't afford the truck load of kites at the moment) and I realise we need a selection board for the worlds and euros, but how do you balance this against the needs of the recreational flyer?

 

The insurance policy I got for my £15 was good value and was bought from the BBC through the PKSF. Isn't this the same as the PKA policy? I thought that was a PKSF policy too. The fact that we are bothered enough to take insurance shows we are concerned for those around us, how many mountain bikers with downhill rigs do you know with some form of insurace?

 

The whole organised side of this sport needs sorting we do need clear guidelines for staging an event that anyone can pick up and use. We need a clear statement that can be sent to any council showing them what the sport is about and how having an event or allowing recreational buggying at anytime can enhance their economy. We need to have a national certificate scheme with clear guidelines on what knowledge you should have and a list of basic techniques you should be expected to perform this should be coupled with allowing shops to run the cert program for little cost (£10?). Mosty of all we need a single body the sports council can deal with that will give us the respectability that we desperately need to be able to buggy/board/surf or fly whereever we damn well want (within reason of course).

 

Burgy if you felt I was slagging you off then I again apologise, but doesn't the fact I picked up so much bad vibes show how desperately we need a single hymn sheet?

[Skud_Mark]

To re-iterate:

 

Troy, myself and the others involved are trying to look out for the needs of ALL FLYERS. We don't care if you buggy, board, skud or surf.

 

Fox2 read burgy's post again.

 

Thanks for the support Agger

 

I agree that it would be nice to be recognised as a sports class in our own right BUT we are not. We have been classed as land yachts so why try reinvent the wheel? As time passes and our respective sports continue to grow who knows but for the immediate future, let's work with what we already have and see what happens from there.

 

If I can draw everyones attention to the original purpose of this thread which was to find out what you ALL would like from a representative body?

[fox 2]

Originally posted by Skud_Mark

Fox2 read burgy's post again.

 

If I can draw everyones attention to the original purpose of this thread which was to find out what you ALL would like from a representative body?

 

I've read it like i siad and i read it again and didn't miss anything the first time! It would be nice to have our own voice instead of being spoken for by the LYA. Example: when that woman was killed (correct me if im wrong) it was by a LY. Now due to that we got a lot of bad press, i feel unfairly! It's at times like that when it would be nice to be our own body. If we stick with the LYA and they carry on governing access to the beaches how the hell do u expect us to gain access if we ever want to part from the LYA in the future?

[tvinson]

That's exactly what the thread is about. Increasing the scope of activities and service offered by the PKA. ATB testing will be on the agenda and sure as I'm represented here in a textual way, if the PKA don;t want to hear about it then we'll be looking to the BBC. We've now got sufficient people power and backing in principal to push for all of these things.

What else do people want to see?