Naish Torch Beginner Kitesurf Kite or Not

[lawsonpipes]

Hi Guys

I recently put up any suggestions for beginner kitesurfing kite, and have been looking at a second hand Naish Torch. I can fly my blade 4 , 4.9m with harness and bar and jumping comfortably and also buggying. Is the torch going to be a dangerous stupid idea given that i don't want to outgrow my kite in a week, and that i can fly, and buggy, and understand the power of the wind.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated

Cheers

[koma]

What year Torch?

I recently had an advanced beginner on my '09 Torch 12m and he loved it!

[lawsonpipes]

Hi Koma,

There was a 2010 9m torch. I am in WA and from talking to people they say the 9m size is the best for wa conditions - 75kg i am. Um yeah what do you reckon.

[lawsonpipes]

Sorry

Also, what do you reckon about the kite aswell. Is it a good kite, yeah your opinion on it would be great

Cheers

[koma]

Is this going to be your first kite?

Your probably better skipping a Torch as your first kite. They're potentially quite a handful. In terms of a modern high depower C-kite they're much MUCH more friendly than the old school C-kites, but even still they can be a little fast and aggressive for a complete beginner.

In terms of how the 2010 Torch is overall - it's sensational! Very popular with the freestyle crowd, they're really versatile and reasonably powerful. Build quality has apparently improved over previous years, and they've eliminated the wingtip flutter in the 2010 version.

[lawsonpipes]

Thanks Koma

Um yeah first water kite, but I also have a bit of common sense and it has been more than once where I have walked out onto and oval and realised it is too dangerous to fly and gone home long faced. The thing is too, when I bought the blade there were many people who said that it was not a beginners kite, and i have had many hours of fun. I always knew i had to walk before I could run.

But certainly, if I am going to end up in hospital, would greatly appreciate it if you told me now! so yeah??

Thanks though for the opinion

have a good one

[koma]

...

But certainly, if I am going to end up in hospital, would greatly appreciate it if you told me now! so yeah??

Thanks though for the opinion

have a good one

Any of the Torches from the last 4 years ('07 onwards) are certainly not widow makers, so your not going to end up hospitalised just from flying one. Your more likely to learn faster on a beginner friendly kite, but if your willing to deal with a slightly steeper learning curve then i see no reason why you couldn't learn on a Torch.

[lawsonpipes]

Cheers for the advice

I enjoyed the challenge with the blade so maybe I will give the torch a go. It depends a lot on the price though!

[Steve]

Have a nice day, I hope its windy wherever you are!

[Jason]

There would be a lot of better kites on the market for learning mate. Sure you can learn on the Torch, but there are just a lot of much easier and safer kites plus you need to get your head around the 5th line safety and relaunching. There are well known issues with the octopuss inflation system.

Don't let anyone tell you that the inflation system is great, they are only talking about it while their kite is holding air, once there is a problem its hard to work on, and the earlier versions were worse. Naish are dropping the octopus system for 2011 kites so you have to wonder why don't you?

My advice is to look for a bow/sle kite like a Slingy Rev, Cabrinha SB or SB IDS, Best Waroo 08 or 09, Ozone 09 Sport or LightXC, or Edge RX, Core GT, etc, etc, etc.

You will not outgrow any of these kites, and they are all well known proven performers with no known faults, wherabouts in WA are you located.?

Maybe Lawson has intentions of being a pure wakestyle rider, in which case why not start on the style of kite he will inevitably end up on?

What kites are safer? Last time I looked the 5th line was still the ultimate in total depower safety. Any safer and we all might as well be doing this http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13735

Well the Octopus system is actually GREAT. I have NEVER had an issue with any of my Octopus kites. When it comes to repairs they are often quicker and easier thanks to the zips on the struts. 90% of the bladder repairs I do on Octopus kites don't even require the removal of a single bladder. 8% require only the removal of a strut bladder which takes the same time as any other one pump. The other 2% take a little longer but still no issue.

If Naish decide to drop the Octopus system I can only imagine it is to bring the cost of construction down in order to compete better with the poverty brands like Ozone, Core etc on price

[Dan OK?]

I learnt on a Naish aero 2 04 model(C kites)

bought a quiver of cabrinah nitros including a 20m(C kite)

went to fuels (C kite)

Now on Vegas ( C kite)

I also own 3 flexifoil blade 4s

If your comfortable with the blades you will have no problem on a torch. It might take you longer at first but your edge control will make you a better kiter when it comes to holding that edge to get air.

[lawsonpipes]

Wow, thanks for the input guys

Steve, appreciate your criticism on the kite, and I also haven't ruled out the sle/bow option either. At the moment though I am really looking for ideas and info, i have got a fair bit of time until kite season picks up again, so now is a good time to do research. I am in the perth area, north of the river if that helps

Jason, was over in brisbane 2 months back, and came past your shop. But of course I picked the one day that you were shut, pretty disappointed hey. Um as far as the style of kiting not to sure, give anything a crack have a bit of fun, will the torch let me do that?? shrug, see what happens. but what is the actual difference between wakestyle and freestyle?? maybe that is an important factor I should look at. Certainly glad to know it is safe!

Dan - like i have said before - i flew a prism bought from jason for a bit and then got a blade. Pretty comfortable with it, know when it is safe to fly and when it should stay in the bag and all that sort of thing

like i said guys

thanks for the ideas

cheers

[koma]

Jason, was over in brisbane 2 months back, and came past your shop. But of course I picked the one day that you were shut, pretty disappointed hey. Um as far as the style of kiting not to sure, give anything a crack have a bit of fun, will the torch let me do that?? shrug, see what happens. but what is the actual difference between wakestyle and freestyle?? maybe that is an important factor I should look at. Certainly glad to know it is safe!

Wakestyle is a style of kiting derived from wakeboarding where the kite is usually only used for power not lift, and all the tricks are board pop initiated. Freestyle is a bit like saying 'Alternative music'... but for the sake of keeping it simple we'll call it new-school which uses the kite for some lift, mixed in with a heap of handlepasses, rotations and technical moves (not that the moves can't be wakestyle as well!).

The Torch is... by pure numbers (percentage of riders using them) THE freestyle kite of choice in the international competitive scene. There's also a massive following of Fuel's and Hadlow Pro's... but each to their own.

[Steve]

Have a nice day, hope its windy wherever you are!

[Jason]

Watch me get howled down for daring to question Jason!

No reason to be howled down. You are entitled to your opinion & I can stick up for myself.

Before someone "becomes" a pure wakestyle kiter, whatever that is, they do need to become a kitesurfer, they do need to learn the basic skills like relaunching, riding upwind, basic jumps and transitions, carving turns, basic unhooked pops and eventually raileys, etc, etc. So they have a lot to learn before getting to this "pure" stage don't they?

Yes and all of this can be achieved on a "C" kite. Just the way you and I did it. The jumping stage will actually be easier on a C.

No 1 thing they need is fast easy depower and fast easy relaunch, they need a depower system that only relies on letting go of the bar, and a relaunch system that is as simple as pulling on one rear line. Torches don't have this and thats why they are not the ideal kite for begginers.

No, the number 1 thing they need is an understanding of how their kite and the wind work and to be practiced in the use of their safety system. I see many Bow kite users still get thrown across the beach because they don't let go of the bar.

My C kite depowers plenty when I let go of the bar, more than quite a few bridled kites. Many bridle kites don't relaunch well just by pulling the back line.

@Dan, anyone thats been kiting more than 4 years learned on C kites, however the sport took on a real boost in popularity after the release of bow/sle kites didn't it?

Why - because of the fast easy depower and the fast easy relaunch.

No - because of marketing and Hype of the mythical 100% de-power

The term used was safer. The only safe kite is one thats in its bag and locked in your car!

Where did you look to get this definitive ruling that 5th line is the superior safety system Jason? Can you post the URL or the name of the person that is the ultimate authority on kite safety systems?

And why are the majority of kites sold not 5th line kites?

Why do only a handful of kites have 5th line safety systems??

Lets let the law of physics decide. Both stand 3 feet in front of some razor sharp daggers in 35knt. You on your 4 line and me on my 5. Flip our kites into the zone and deploy our safety. The one left alive is correct.

Why there aren't more 5 line kites is simple human nature, we are lazy beasts.

Hmm not confident with your statistics. The majority of repairs are easy enough for a dealer, but not so easy for a customer who is not experienced with the system and its flaws.

External one pumps systems are far quicker to repair with confidence that the repair is done first time, unlike the naish system which you cannot see as you put the male nozzle into the LE female socket. The main issue with the system is the teflon tape comes loose and it needs to be replaced, and an inexperienced user really struggles with this.

The naish system over pressurises the struts when the kite is crashed hard repeatedly, leading to strut zippers failing or the struts bursting.

I am as I do heaps of repairs. Externals aren't quicker and have their own drawbacks. Like the screws in the cabrinha which rust.

No need to replace the teflon tape most of the time, just leave the original on. No need to see the system as you can feel it click into place.

Maybe you haven't seen a Naish strut in a couple of years but there aint no breaking of the seams or zips since 08.

The naish system is ill conceived requiring all the struts to be let down individually, and then all those struts to be closed again before inflating the kite, its a slow waste of time system, built around avoiding the slingshot patent (has not worked though from what I've heard). Even North caved in this year and paid Slingshot to install the superior slingy external one pump system.

This one is funny. Lets have a race with 2 kites the same volume. Both pumping and deflating. Enough said.

So part of your marketing strategy to defend a flawed idea on naish kites, is to insult the integrity of brands that are taking a lot of market share in your home market?

Curious isn't it that both those kites use the patented Slingy system and Ozone for sure pay the royalty to use the patent.

Your correct, it's not normally my thing to bag out brands but I was just following the general feel of this thread as it was the whole reason you jumped into it.

Actually it does really seem to be your thing doesn't is Steve. Even going as far as to create alter egos on forums in order to bash opposing brands-

@Koma - I reckon the Fuel is by far the most popular pure c kite used in wakestyle riding.

Yes great kite. One local rider fitted a 5th line to his

[kondorman]

Hi Lawsonpipes

I was in your predicament a couple of seasons ago, I had a lot of flying under my belt on the land with buggies and landboarding and then decided I wanted to hit the water. I bought a Best Waroo and grew out of it really quickly (within 1 season) and soon upgraded to a Bandit Dos. The 2009 Torch is a very good kite with exellent depower and safety, Westfire learnt on a 2009 Torch and is progressing very nicely, so it is more than plausible for anyone else to do the same. I know a few people who fly them and love them. If I had my time over, I think I would of been more than happy with a Torch for my first water kite (because I would be still flying it). Make sure too, that you get a good board that suits you, this will make a massive difference in your progression. I am actually glad that Jason refused to sell me a board that wasn't suitable. He really has some good advice. Good luck with your purchase and hope you'll be doing backrolls soon!

Cheers Kondorman

[Steve]

Have a nice day, hope its windy wherever you are!

[Steve]

Have a nice day, hope its windy wherever you are!

[Jason]

Well this is becoming a bit tedious.

It would seem you cant stand by your statements as you keep editing your posts after they have been responded to and shot down.

I have the flu and am not really interested in playing more KP Steve games.

[Jason]

Jason, was over in brisbane 2 months back, and came past your shop. But of course I picked the one day that you were shut, pretty disappointed hey. Um as far as the style of kiting not to sure, give anything a crack have a bit of fun, will the torch let me do that?? shrug, see what happens. but what is the actual difference between wakestyle and freestyle?? maybe that is an important factor I should look at. Certainly glad to know it is safe!

Sorry, looks like I neglected to answer your question.

I think your best bet would be to turn up at your local beach and just watch for a while. Maybe ask a few questions of the kiters who know what they are doing as well. You will soon get an idea of what you might like.

Jas

[Steve]

Wow, thanks for the input guys

Steve, appreciate your criticism on the kite, and I also haven't ruled out the sle/bow option either. At the moment though I am really looking for ideas and info, i have got a fair bit of time until kite season picks up again, so now is a good time to do research. I am in the perth area, north of the river if that helps

Jason, was over in brisbane 2 months back, and came past your shop. But of course I picked the one day that you were shut, pretty disappointed hey. Um as far as the style of kiting not to sure, give anything a crack have a bit of fun, will the torch let me do that?? shrug, see what happens. but what is the actual difference between wakestyle and freestyle?? maybe that is an important factor I should look at. Certainly glad to know it is safe!

Dan - like i have said before - i flew a prism bought from jason for a bit and then got a blade. Pretty comfortable with it, know when it is safe to fly and when it should stay in the bag and all that sort of thing

like i said guys

thanks for the ideas

cheers

G'day Mate

Drop in to have a chat with one of the local shops, not many people out kiting in WA now because the winds have turned offshore mostly, I recommend having a chat with Jason Lewis at WestOz Kiteboarding - http://www.westozkiteboarding.com.au

or any of these other good shops

Daniel at Kite Addiction - http://www.kiteaddiction.com.au

Graham at Choice Kiteboarding - http://www.choicekitesurfing.com.au/main/

Andy at SOS in Freo - http://www.sossurf.com.au/

I don't think any of them will advise you to get a 5 line c kite to start out with, and a couple of them sell Naish.

Have a nice day, hope its windy wherever you are!

Steve

[Steve]

Have a nice day, I hope its windy wherever you are!

[lawsonpipes]

Cheers guys

Thansk Koma, for the answer on wakestyle and freestyle, actually pretty simple difference when you think about it.

Jason, Steve, you both have valuable points, and I am not going to say I agree with either one of you more than the other, however if you were fighting about who could get me a great setup for a really good price it might be another story. At the moment though I have just started uni, so money is tight, and therefore spending a fair bit of time doing research and working out what would best suit me, so I haven't ruled other kites out either Steve.

As far as the brand goes, and the problems with the kite, every kite has there problems, otherwise you would have recommended to me ages ago one kite to do everything, but given that that isn't the case then I have to take the good with the bad whatever I do.

Kondorman, thanks heaps for your opinion. Given that you were in my situation and wish you had bought a kite like a torch, I am glad I am spending the time looking at what kite would best suit where I am at. I was looking at the waroo, and not knocking it as a kite, but I want a bit more of a challenge, like what the blade was. One that you respect cause of its power and not one which you thrash around on get a big head go and pick up a torch and end up in a pile of rocks 2ks down the beach cause you thought it was easy.

Ha Jason - I got the flu too - sucks, and would love to go to the beach but there hasn't been enough wind to get my blade up - depressing. and yeah I always go and have a chat with the guys.

And then what sort of board would I put with the torch??

Cheers for the input again guys

[koma]

And then what sort of board would I put with the torch??

How heavy are you?

Most 'normal' (70-90kg) riders start out on ~136-140 boards and then downsize after a season (and a bit of experience) to 128-134. If your lighter or heavier than that you'll need to adjust board size accordingly.

I like my Nobile boards and the NBL looks good for the price as a first board, but i haven't ridden it.

I have spent a bit of time playing with the FIND Riot and reckon it's a great intermediate board for not much money. It's 90% of my Nobile 666 for about half the price.

[lawsonpipes]

cheers koma - yeah i'm about 70ish