Sand-Yeti Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 This debate is very interesting and it provoked me into getting some insight from my Moslem colleagues at work today. They all agree that Jack Straw's has the right request a woman to remove the veil. It is then up to the women if she wants to or not. We all checked out the section of the Quran on women's modesty and there is no passage stating that the face has to be covered. However, the hair must be covered. It then came down to a question of interpretation As you know, trying to read something into what isn't actually written causes controversy. All of my Moslem mates & colleagues agree that the wearing of the veil is rather cultural than religious. In Lebanon, Jordan and Syria you don't find too many people wearing the veil whereas in Saudi & Yemen it is fairly common. I spent a lot of time in Yemen and I noticed more veiled women in the towns & cities compared to the rural country areas. All my Moslem mates agree that talking to a woman with the face uncovered is a lot easier than when the face is covered. An experiment to try at home with your partner would be to carry on a conversation for say one hour but in adjoining rooms with the doors open where you are in good hearing distance of each other without having to raise your voice. You will observe that you can communicate but not as well as when you are both in the same room looking at each other. What amazes me in the UK is that the Moslems are a small minority (someone wrote 2.8%) Assuming at least 70% of them are male & children, that leaves about 0.6% of a female Moslem pooulation. Probably only 10% of those might wear a veil when it suits them i.e number of veiled women is probably less than 0.06% of the population. Now in a democracy, the party that gets the majority is allowed to rule . The party is elected by the people to represent their views, rights etc. Unfortunately, they don't always do that but rather do what improves their own party &/or personal situation. From what I gather, the overwhelming majority of Brits support Jack Straw's comment on the veil with just a few people presenting weak arguments against his statement. Prescott for example is just trying to make political stand but he really doesn't have leg to stand on & to be honest is coming out of this sounding like a pr@t. It 's one of these cases where if one side says something is white, the other will say it is black just because they are on oppsite sides. What is amazing is that the majority of Brits agree with Jack Straw, Where is your democracy? Sand-Yeti Quote
Sturmovik Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 do the women come with the balacavers? quote] Only if you tickle them in the right way, oh er!! Quote
muffy Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Yes but as has already been stated, it's the husbands, brothers and fathers of these women that make them wear the Hajib or Burka. ....and as for a multicultural society.......doesn't anybody else see that it's exactly this that causes all these problems. Multuculturalism leads to "tribalism" which in turn leads to one ethnic or religious group hating/fighting/whatever with another ethnic or religious group. I personally don't care what the colour of your skin is or which God you worship but there should only be ONE culture in this country. A woman has the right to choose what she wears! I may not like the idea of Hijab, but I will defend any women's right to choose freely to wear it. Quote
rod_bunny Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Todays Times... editorial by Saira Khan on page 21 (also http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2394934,00.html) pretty much sums up my thoughts The last line is: But my argument with those Muslims who would only be happy in a Talebanised society, who turn their face against integration, is this: “If you don’t like living here and don’t want to integrate, then what the hell are you doing here? Why don’t you just go and live in an Islamic country?” Wear what you like... just dont ***** if it causes you grief in "normal" society. And by "normal" I mean whatever the general prevailing trend is: Suits & Tie at work - see how long you last wearing shorts & a Tshirt or dressed like a clown. High Street - Go naked cause thats you thang, your gonna get banged up. If you wanna fit in with whatever group (your local club or society in general) you need to at least defer to those groups clothes & customs - if you dont wanna fit in & do what you like then the off chance is you getting get ostracised for it. Afterall... you dont go around to a persons house for a party and then sit on your own in a locked bderoom all night and then ***** cause no one talked to you? Quote
Osamabinkiting Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Come to my country it's full of bloody foreigners who don't give **** about the indigenous population, don't respect their views or customs Especially the ones who thrust their ethnicity in your face you know the ones that insist on wearing intimidating clothing and even mark their cars the same way just to show you they aren't from around here. They come in and buy houses and take over entire neighbourhoods, refuse to learn the language and even complain when you use it. They even take over big chunks of the country and dictate what can and can't be built there. Kick em all out:D Cymru am byth Quote
Rik Waller Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Bless you Osama! Wales doesnt count lol! its only another bit of England! Quote
Spiritflier Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Come to my country and mine for Pot Noodle... You don't have a country per se, you have a Principality... Isn't it... bachgen bach? Quote
tiny_clanger Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 But Spirit - if you talk to well educated, British, female Muslims, there are those who have chosen to remain covered. There are women who choose to cover not from familial pressure, but from their own choice, believing that the religious justification is a good one. And for them, I support their right to cover, and any woman who chooses to cover themselves and who makes a free choice to do so. There are many women who cover freely. There are many women who choose to cover though their family and friends do not. It is a fallacy to assume all women cover because of familial pressure. For the past 60 years or so, if you had the right stuff, you could go to university and study. That is not the case on the whole. Universities were not acceping of women, women did not have an open and free choice as to what to study and their post degree career options were very limited. Didn’t we foist democracy on many of the First Wave states in the first place? No - we are the First Wave. I think you've got the 1st and Third waves mixed up. The first wave consisted of the UK, America, Canada, parts of Europe. The receding of the First Wave occured immediately prior to WWII, the Second Wave occured immediately after WWII. The Third Wave occured with the collapse of Sovietism and the Fourth Wave occured in the late Clinton era. we’re killing off our own identity in the process. I disagree. Our culture is based on waves of immigrants, going right back to the Romans and before. Part of what defines me has come about as a result of multiculturalism - my love of Japanese food, the Buddhist teachings I practise, my enjoyment of Arabic coffee and hubbly-bubbly, Tabbouleh being one of my favourite summer foods. The things which are "destroying British culture" are far more insidious than immigration. Look at Guy Fawkes/Halloween - Halloween is an American invention, IMO Guy Fawkes' is far more important, but is becoming increasingly forgotten. The commercialisation of Robin Hood, the Americanisation of King Arthur. I find it far more insidious that we have allowed our British cultural story to have been commercialised so much that there is little of it left! The British metanarrative has become little more than a cultural Disneyland and that is the real tragedy. We have screamed and shouted about our cultural story being destroyed by others with a different story, whilst completely ignoring the fact that we have systematically whored our culture off to anyone who wants an "authentic" experience. What is amazing is that the majority of Brits agree with Jack Straw, Where is your democracy? Presumably functioning pretty well if Jack Straw was elected as a representative of the people who, according to yourself, on the whole agree with him Quote
spooky Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Hi TC, I do not think many people are disagreeing with you in that its the womans right to chosse, just like it is ALL our rights to choose what we wear, do, follow etc WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE LAW. What it seems Jack has done is asked those who wear vails to remove them as he felt it is better for communications, I for one agree seeing who you are talking to is so much better. As we have all offended some on on here because we can only read and hence interpretate what we read rather than how the originator intended? All because some one for got to add a smilely BUT the issue is Jack only asked, he did not insist and he respected the rights of those that did refuse. Unfortunatly some people (a very small section) have decided to use this to sell papers, make news or even just because they want to be a "victim" and get there 15mins of fame? Using a floored argument, in that it is part of their Religion so is an attack on Islam, which as far as I can tell is incorrect? It is their culture. Yes there Culture may require women to cover up, just like for years our culture required women to wear skirts, and I for one (along with most it seems) accept that. Seems simple to me, "will you remove your vail, hoodie, baseball cap, wipe your feet etc etc please" "No" "Ok no worries". Or am I missing something? And as for "Fatty" Prescott?? I think he should be forced to hide his face Jon P.s forgot to add, ref Uni's bit of a bad example if you ask me, as in ome countries where religion not only guides culture but actually is the rule of law, women do not get to go to Uni? Quote
Spiritflier Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 ...There are women who choose to cover not from familial pressure, but from their own choice, believing that the religious justification is a good one... Hi TC, Apparently, there's no part of the Koran that says a woman has to wear a veil... It just says a woman should dress with modesty. That is not the case on the whole. Universities were not acceping of women, women did not have an open and free choice as to what to study and their post degree career options were very limited. Universities DID accept women albeit in selected cases and not in such an open way as they do today... I accept that the chance would have been slim but to imply that it never happened at all, is incorrect. No - we are the First Wave. I think you've got the 1st and Third waves mixed up... My apologies TC, I was thinking of Alvin and Heidi Toffler's version of things... 'First Wave' states or regions are pre-modern and agrarian. 'Second Wave' ones are nations heavy in industry and 'Third Wave' states or regions are defined as being able to explore new techniques of economic production and social organization. ... Our culture is based on waves of immigrants, going right back to the Romans and before. Part of what defines me has come about as a result of multiculturalism - my love of Japanese food, the Buddhist teachings I practise, my enjoyment of Arabic coffee and hubbly-bubbly, Tabbouleh being one of my favourite summer foods. Ok, I'll concede that point to a certain degree. I firmly believe though that we've become so swamped that we now struggle to find some kind of anchor to swing on. We are losing our identity TC in just the same way as we're losing our language. English is an evolutionary language and in the same way, so are the people but there comes a time when that evolution has to take a halt if for no other reason than to allow people to catch up and assimilate everything that's been thrust upon us. It is possible to have too much of a good thing. What is amazing is that the majority of Brits agree with Jack Straw, Where is your democracy? I don't remember saying that TC... I'll have to go back and check. I think it pays to remember though that the majority of the electorate are like sheep... They're not interested in policies or results, they'll just follow the herd/flock and pray for the best - or more likely pray that all the crap happens to someone else . They're interested in voting for whoever their parents voted for or for whoever best fits their local environment. Around here, it'd be a cold day in Hell if the Conservatives won simply because the local electorate aren't sophisticated enough to understand the intricacies of politics... I'm not being derogatory to them, I'm simply stating an observation. Comments like "My family have always voted Labour/Conservative/Lib Dem therefore so will I" are endemic. Apathy is a politicians best friend. Presumably functioning pretty well if Jack Straw was elected as a representative of the people who, according to yourself, on the whole agree with him I'm surprised he even said anything in the first place. Jack Straw's been in politics for long enough to know the outcome of opening his mouth on a subject as controversial as Islamic Integration. When all's said and done, I just want my country back and I want those who wish to be a part of our society to play by the rules and stop playing the race and religion card just to gain sympathy and an even greater foot-hold. Catch ya later, Si Quote
Spiritflier Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Come to my country... Technically, you don't have a country bachgen bach... you have a Principality. Isn't it? Quote
Spiritflier Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 Come to my country... Are you talking about England or Wales? If it's Wales you're talking about then technically, you don't have a country, bachgen bach... you have a Principality! Isn't it? Quote
Crispy Posted October 9, 2006 Report Posted October 9, 2006 The overiding message in this thread has been that people make a fuss to sell newspapers. Please please please stop buying newspapers. Stop picking up the Metro in the morning. Everyone. Even you. Encourage others to give it up too. There are enough places to find out what's going on in the world if you're interested in current affairs. Just think what a negligable effect anything based around shock news coverage would be if the populace would just turn some of its apathy toward the daily press. Politicians will never solve any of mankind's problems as our problems aren't political. Perhaps if we can move past our hangup in this respect we could all start planning on a sensible way to move forward into the future. Quote
eifion Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 if I may say so should they (immegrants) not abide by our laws and customs if they come to our country the same as we would be expected to abide by their laws and customs if we went to their country.................. Easy target, aren't they, immigrants. What about British muslim women who choose to wear the veil though? Personally I don't like it, because 1 it says that there's something inherently shameful or unclean about women and femininity that they must be hidden away from others and god (a common feature in many religions), and secondly it implies that men are nothing but animals, unable to control their lust, and will be turned into mad raving rapists at the mere sight of a bit of female flesh. I think it's just a case of good manners. If I'm engaging with another human being I think it's good manners to show my face. So when I pull into a petrol station on my motorcycle the first thing I do is take my helmet off. Not because the station owners ask me, but because the sight of a big bloke in leathers with his face hidden can be intimidating to the staff and other customers. Some stations won't turn the pump on till you take your helmet off, but I think it's just good manners to do so anyway, whether the station asks or not. I wonder what would happen in the case of a muslim woman biker turning up for petrol. The station attendant ask her to remove her helmet, she complies, only to reveal that she's wearing a veil under the helmet.... Quote
Osamabinkiting Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 Bless you Osama! Wales doesnt count lol! its only another bit of England! Hahaha! My response was finally taken in the light it was meant tongue very firmly in cheek bachgen mawr. P.S. I'd lay off the pies Quote
dmb Posted October 10, 2006 Author Report Posted October 10, 2006 ... 30 years ago, I would not have been able to go to university and study politics. ... PMSL, only 'cos you weren't born then TC - even Engineering had loads of women students 30 years ago. Maybe you meant 130 years ... Quote
Osamabinkiting Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 Come to my country... Are you talking about England or Wales? If it's Wales you're talking about then technically, you don't have a country, bachgen bach... you have a Principality! Isn't it? Ah you switched allegiances very quickly first telling me to stay accross the border then telling me I don't have a country. Definition: Principality a state ruled by a prince, usually a relatively small state or a state that falls within a larger state such as an empire." As we are not ruled by a prince and neither does engurland have an empire then tits to you. Definition: Country A nation or state. The territory of a nation or state; land. The people of a nation or state; populace: i.e. The whole country will profit from the new economic reforms. The land of a person's birth or citizenship: i.e. Foreign travel is restricted in his country. A region, territory, or large tract of land distinguishable by features of topography, biology, or culture: hill country; Bible country. An area or expanse outside cities and towns; a rural area: a vacation in the country. So by definition you must be one of those foreign interlopers who refuses to remove his balaclava in polite company Bachgen bloneg:p This was copi a pastio from various websites Quote
Spiritflier Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 Sbio ar dy negesaeon a paid a bod yn twpsyn twp. Si Quote
timmay Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 I'll apologise firstly as I haven't read every single post on this thread as I wanted to add my tuppance before it was midnight (not the fastest of readers). I got this email round at work the other day which pretty much sums things up for me, its about Australian politicians voicing their views on what many people have discussed already - the right to leave! The email (which I'd copy in if I could work out how) largely talks about Australian society being founded by Christians on a Christian moral system, and if immigrants were unhappy with the Australian lifestyle it is them that should adapt. Whilst not hugely religous myself I am happy to live in a country founded largely on christian morals, which I also feel are a fairly reasonable way to expect people to behave and are also not a bad basis for a society to be based upon. Someone commented sarcastically earlier that they'd always wondered where the BNP had found people to vote for them....as disgusted by the BNP as I am, as i find racism disgusting , I whole heartedly understand why their support is growing, having studied Nazi Germany in some serious depth at A-Level it is quite easy to see how even the most liberal of people can be lead to accept very right wing political views when events and circumstance are portrayed to them to be the root cause of a countries problems, the current political attitude of pandering to the minority because it speaks louder than the majority is a very dangerous practice, resentment by the masses will increase and all it will take is a party like the BNP to come along and portray in a way to the masses that certain minorities in society are the root of all problems and by removing them they can offer a better country....not something I would like to see happen. This whole subject is something that fascinates me as much as it concerns me and actually affects me on a daily basis. I am a white english, anglo saxon male, my current girl friend is an english asian, her father was originally from Uganda I believe, and his parents originally from India. Now as far as I am concerned she is English, she was born here and has lived here all her life in our western society, her family are Hindu but she is not overly religous herself BUT she is scared to tell her family about me for fear they will disown her because I am not a Hindu asian male of their choosing. This makes life quite difficult and is very upsetting for both of us, the thing that gets me most is that were it the other way round and it was I who was in fear of telling my parents that my girlfriend was not white my parents would viewed as racists, people who would, and should, be considered outdated and unreasonable. However as the situation currently is her parents seem to have a cultural right to their views - my point being, I would like to think I am not racist, that I have no problems with living in a multicultural society - what does offend me is that as a white anglo saxon male in England I feel like I'm being discriminated against, and all the while politicians pander to the minorities who take offence to polite requests to accept our culture I'll remain offended. Quote
keishin Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 the thing that gets me most is that were it the other way round and it was I who was in fear of telling my parents that my girlfriend was not white my parents would viewed as racists I agree with what you are saying here, not saying this is the same with everyone but why is it that if a white person makes a coment about some one from a different origin ie: black, asian..etc it is deemed as racist, however if the tables are turned this is not so? an example is if a whiteman/women dislikes someone of a different ethnicity, its not because they dislike like them as a person its because of their skin colour/faith..etc (not sayin this is always the case) but again if it was the person from a different ethnicity disliking a white person, skin colour would have nothin to do with it...? This is probably not the best way to put this across but i'm sure someone much smarter than me will get my drift and be able to put it across better with better examples:p Quote
muffy Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 Good post timmay - you hit so many nails on the head. I went out with a Sikh girl whilst at college. She was so scared in case her parents found out. We had to go out with groups of poeple to disguise the fact that we were together or go to other towns if we wanted to be by ourselves for fear of being caught!! Quote
Crispy Posted October 10, 2006 Report Posted October 10, 2006 One of my friends is a non-practicing Muslim and a generally chilled out guy. He met his non-practicing Hindu girlfriend at uni; they'd been going out together for ten years when I met them. All that time she was too worried to tell her family - when her parents came down he packed away all of his gear and moved out for the weekend! Her family constantly asked her why she hadn't met anyone. Last year he asked her to marry him. This led to an exceedingly fraught time for all concerned. Her parents spent most of the time prior to the wedding actively trying to talk her out of it. Throughout this time they referred to him as solely as 'the terrorist'. Nice, eh? Quote
Sand-Yeti Posted October 11, 2006 Report Posted October 11, 2006 One of my friends is a non-practicing Muslim and a generally chilled out guy. He met his non-practicing Hindu girlfriend at uni; they'd been going out together for ten years when I met them. All that time she was too worried to tell her family - when her parents came down he packed away all of his gear and moved out for the weekend! Her family constantly asked her why she hadn't met anyone. Last year he asked her to marry him. This led to an exceedingly fraught time for all concerned. Her parents spent most of the time prior to the wedding actively trying to talk her out of it. Throughout this time they referred to him as solely as 'the terrorist'. Nice, eh? Interesting story but similar stories are not uncommon. The girl can consider herself fortunate that she didn't have to marry a suitable Hindu boy selected by her family who she would only meet on her wedding day. I hope your friends' marriage is a success. You will probably find her parents coming to terms with it if he looks after her well. It might take a few years though. Do you know if he paid her a dowry that was an acceptable amount to the family? In this part of the world, if either the parents of the boy or the girl found out that they were living together and reported it to the authorities, then there's a good chance they would both be in serious trouble. Sentencing in such cases often involves short prison terms (never usually more than 3 months), sometime being lashed is part of the sentence and deportation if they are non locals. So being called a terrorist wasn't so bad. Sand-Yeti Quote
spooky Posted October 11, 2006 Report Posted October 11, 2006 In Oxford not long back we had an "honour killing"!!! I'm sorry but no place for that kind of religion, culture or attitude as far as I am concerned!!! Jon Quote
Jonny3.3blade Posted October 11, 2006 Report Posted October 11, 2006 Heres my angle on it! Why should they be allowed to wear there head scarfs when motorcyclist arent allowed to wear there helmets in shops banks etc also hoodies have been band in shopping centres etc . Personally I think its time that the muslim comuinity or the minority of them who reject our culture should be made to follow it and our goverment should stop pussy footing round on issues like this before it gets out of hand! Also if somethings done it may stop young muslims joining al queada or other terrorist/extremist organizations . rant over ok some may not agree with this view but this is my tact on it! Jonny Quote
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