AndySmith Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Oi! dont hijack the thread Tis hard enough getting any sense out of the PKA at the best of times without confusing them further. At present if its £20 for WSYC members - Then the bank at Hoylake will be busy that weekend. Come on PKA get with the program make it £10 for everyone to encourage us all to turn up and make the event the success it has been in the past. Also couple of odd things here - the fact that the Gasp now needs licences is a recent development and so is the fact a PKSF event needs them. Hmmmmm why make things so difficult for a fun wind down to the season event. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexibra Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Oi! dont hijack the thread Tis hard enough getting any sense out of the PKA at the best of times without confusing them further. At present if its £20 for WSYC members - Then the bank at Hoylake will be busy that weekend. Come on PKA get with the program make it £10 for everyone to encourage us all to turn up and make the event the success it has been in the past. Also couple of odd things here - the fact that the Gasp now needs licences is a recent development and so is the fact a PKSF event needs them. Hmmmmm why make things so difficult for a fun wind down to the season event. Cheers Andrew Andy Who said you need to be licenced for the Gasp, you don't and its nothing to do with the PKSF:D Icicles and Last Gasp have previously been £15 as was past PKA rounds (from memory it was £60 for the whole series). As for the extra £5 for non PKA members I don't think that many people would object to paying this. People were quite happy to pay the FED a one off £5 fee to enter the Ainsdale Supercup Enduro Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexibra Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Just a suggestion - how about a fee for the whole year? I don't want to suggest an amount as I already recieve enough flaming on the forums John I may stand corrected but I think that in the past the PKA charged £60 for the annual series. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexibra Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I’m inclined to agree that the entry fee of £20 is way to steep for one days racing of such low calibre, after all the event is just a fun event traditionally? I for one don’t intend to stay out for the whole 4 hrs if it is freezing cold. Is it for the cash prize fund to attract the top pilots? If so what will the prizes be? I think about £200 in cash for the winner would just about make me think about coming? Perhaps you should put the entry fee up some more maybe say £50 that way the cash prize fund could go up even more!! It’s an interesting point what do pilots think they should pay for the Super Cup next year. Bearing in mind that it made a substantial loss this year (although we do have some fixed assets now). Any profits made are turned into making the series more professional and give the pilots a better event. If you run it on a shoestring then you will get shoestring service. I’m interested though in what pilots think is fair and would be happy to pay for a National event? 2 days of racing. Gray Gray Got to agree with you on this one. Events need to grow and you know it all costs. I have said all along that cash prizes should be on offer and there are many ways of raising cash. No pilot likes paying entrance fees on the day and I would be up for a discount if all paid in advance to aid cashflow. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Bailey Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Not to add fuel to the flames but........£20 for a days racing! Try swallowing £200 as we have to, in motor racing!!! Yes, I know, before anyone starts, that with motor racing we have to pay for ambulances, hospital beds, etc, etc, but at 1/10 of the cost you get 4 hours, organised, racing (about 8.5p perminute)- 15 mins practice, 15 mins racing in the cars (£6.66 per minute) Just my 2 cents...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Not to add fuel to the flames but........£20 for a days racing! Try swallowing £200 as we have to, in motor racing!!! Yes, I know, before anyone starts, that with motor racing we have to pay for ambulances, hospital beds, etc, etc, but at 1/10 of the cost you get 4 hours, organised, racing (about 8.5p perminute)- 15 mins practice, 15 mins racing in the cars (£6.66 per minute) Just my 2 cents...... Yes and you should also be well aware of the complaints - the incomplete grids - the combining of series and the general poor state of motor racing in the UK because of these costs. But this is apples and houses let alone oranges we are comparing here. I do really object to getting stung an extra £5 for nothing - and paying £20 for a PKA event that in the main this year have only been memorable for being poorly run and organised. At Pendine it was only at my insistance that they did not run the course through a line unexploded motar shells . At motor racing we will stop the hill if there is a Pheasant at the side of the track. Anyway - Richard has made it quite clear that its £20 for all but Ainsdale and PKA for whatever reason and no licence required so at least we know where we stand. Sorry for assuming is was PKA and PKSF Rich its what has been posted on this thread about the event. Perhaps a full post with all the priices and details is in order as its only a couple of weeks off. You never know as with previous Gasps - the PKA is providing a marquee for buggy storage - showers and toilets and discounted meals for the racers - if thats the case it would be nice to know, together with cheap camping and free overnight parking that was also incuded previously. Finally Rich - I paid £10 per PKA race day this year by the stubs in my cheque book, If everyone else paid £15 . Still as the PKA could not score me correctly at the end of the season perhaps that was price I pay As for who said its a PKSF event - who wants to own up. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Dates are the 4/5th of December. This is a PKA event and as such will be insured through the PKSF. However as Ainsdale is a Fed beach, Fed insurance will be acceptable as well. All competitors will need to have PKA pilots licenses. Licensing will take place on the Saturday, costs for licenses are £10 (We think). Not sure about costs for the event yet. Thanks for the interest Think thats clear enough Rich dont you - have not found a reply from you correcting this post. Also see previous post about event insured by PKSF by Jon. Not convincing me that the PKA knows what its doing. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexibra Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Think thats clear enough Rich dont you - have not found a reply from you correcting this post. Also see previous post about event insured by PKSF by Jon. Not convincing me that the PKA knows what its doing. Cheers Andrew Andy I do agree that a full post is needed and time is going on. Behind the scenes (I and others) have been trying to sort digs out, which is not neccessary down to the organisers is it, but it has held things up. Also I needed a few things clarified at the FED AGM which was only on Saturday. I have taken on the role of event organiser for this event but am not always on the Forum to check postings. If I had access and knew how to do it I would be updating the PKA site with details. I think that it is a bit misunderstood about the PKA/PKSF bit. At the mo the PKSF are the insurers (as such) of PKA events, but this is a PKA event with the help from the local club. The £15 (or £20) fee is for the whole weekend not just 4 hours but will only be charged if pilots want to enter the Gasp. All pilots will need to prove insurance though. Look out for a new info only Thread soon. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8015 Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Andy - PKA insurance is PKSF now! Sefton Council already recognise FED insurance as well so I can't see insurance being a problem. I'm interested to know what the line on licensing really is, although Wirral are planning to get everyone to take a license in future in lieu of any more general competency test being available, and thus I was planning to take one anyway. I wonder if Sefton have imposed a licensing restriction on top of what the PKA would normally have done for last gasp? Cost, yeah that's a tricky one. Looks steep to me based on other events I've done, but as these have all been supercups and Gray has stated that they don't break even maybe it's time we faced up to the real cost? As for non-PKA members having to pay extra that's fairly normal practice, you want to try kayaking at one of the artificial whitewater courses and centres (except Teeside), if your not in one of the NGB's you have to pay double for the privilege. Also remember that WSYC charge non-members £2.50 on top of race fees to go on the bank...... (What do you mean some people evade paying that?) I don't think it is fair to simply slag the PKA for the previous races this season and also assume that last gasp is going to be the same. It's not! Rich has only just got involved and is trying to rectify past mistakes and take the PKA racing forward, AFAIK the last gasp will be his first event so lets not pass judgement before it's even happened! So yeah, I reckon discount for fees paid in advance (supercups are in theory £5 extra if paid on the day, but as you have to pay up front to guarantee your place it never seems to come to that). Also as PKA and kitebeach club are organising the event they already have their own members details etc. for everyone else there will presumably be emergency contact forms and disclaimers to fill out and file so maybe an admin fee is not unrealistic? JIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flydad Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I must say I don't have a problem with paying a supplement for a good event. I do however wonder just what expenses are incurred in running an event? I can accept that people giving up there time as scorers and marshalls shouldn't be out of pocket for helping at an event (as it wouldn't happen without them) but at the same time I would expect the organisers to try and procure 'local' help and not be shipping people in from the farthest extents of the land . I'm also well aware that 1 volunteer is worth 10 pressed people but surely the proffesionalism comes in to making it gel. I also get the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that the PKA is more of an umbrella for this event and that the whole Last Gasp organisation is all on Richards shoulders! My reasons for this being that in about 80 odd posts on these forums, no one else, accepted as being a part of the controling interests of the PKA, have even made a mention in its defense! Good on you Rich, and no I don't think £20 for the four hours is to much if you take it in relation to the other PKA series events where you get about 1 hour's racing for your tenner (3 x 20 min races on average) even if it does tend to spread out over 4-5 hours. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big-jon Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I apologise to all and to Rich for stating that you needed a license to compete in the event - my fault and my mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Andy - PKA insurance is PKSF now! Also remember that WSYC charge non-members £2.50 on top of race fees to go on the bank...... (What do you mean some people evade paying that?) I don't think it is fair to simply slag the PKA for the previous races this season and also assume that last gasp is going to be the same. It's not! Rich has only just got involved and is trying to rectify past mistakes and take the PKA racing forward, AFAIK the last gasp will be his first event so lets not pass judgement before it's even happened! So yeah, I reckon discount for fees paid in advance (supercups are in theory £5 extra if paid on the day, but as you have to pay up front to guarantee your place it never seems to come to that). Also as PKA and kitebeach club are organising the event they already have their own members details etc. for everyone else there will presumably be emergency contact forms and disclaimers to fill out and file so maybe an admin fee is not unrealistic? JIM 1. Not now - has been for some years. 2. £2.50-no idea where you got that idea from but its wrong. 3. You dont think its right to judge on past perfromance - We differ its the only meter I know. 4. Whats changed from every other PKA event this year? - Just smacks of having a dig at the FED clubs - Answer one question for me rich What has changed from all other events at £10 to be doubled for me at this event. Are the fee's that high for using the beach and the clubs facilities over those at Hoylake? give me a beleivable reply and I will gladly pay the double rate. I have every respect for Rich trying to put the event on but up to now 2 weeks away what do you know? the clearest information has been forthcoming since I have been putting some pressure on. As for all you people happy to pay £20 a day - Gray will be only to pleased to hear it. Just wonder how happy you would be if the Supercup cost £40 for a weekend?? and £200 for a 5 race season!!!!! and the PKA series likewise. People want to support paying more rather than backing a movement to get the costs down - how very odd Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunter Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 andrew why dont you just shut the **** up:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexibra Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Answer one question for me rich What has changed from all other events at £10 to be doubled for me at this event. Are the fee's that high for using the beach and the clubs facilities over those at Hoylake? give me a beleivable reply and I will gladly pay the double rate. Truth is Andy, The fee is has been set by myself as this PKA Event organiser and has nothing to do with the local club, BUT as the club has done a lot of work in organising the event they should be rewarded. It has nothing to do with Hoylake's facilities for which I agree are the best in the UK at the moment. I have every respect for Rich trying to put the event on but up to now 2 weeks away what do you know? the clearest information has been forthcoming since I have been putting some pressure on. Yes Andy I agree BUT, You know the politics of this sport and I decided that before posting too much I would wait until after the PKA AGM (2 weeks ago) and the FED AGM (last week). You will probably see my point. As for all you people happy to pay £20 a day - Gray will be only to pleased to hear it. Just wonder how happy you would be if the Supercup cost £40 for a weekend?? and £200 for a 5 race season!!!!! and the PKA series likewise. People want to support paying more rather than backing a movement to get the costs down - how very odd AndrewReason for Last Gasp at A o S At the August Ainsdale SC Enduro I was impressed by the beach and saw it as a good venue for the Last Gasp, I then made enquiries. The local club and council need events so this helped all. Hope to collect your £20 from you on Sunday week and listen to you swearing for 4 hours round the coarse with me. Offline now till tomorrow eve Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 andrew why dont you just shut the **** up:cool: Care to be man enough to post with your real identity ? Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Hope to collect your £20 from you on Sunday week and listen to you swearing for 4 hours round the coarse with me. Rich Hi Rich You have not given answers as to why I have to pay £5 more than you and why the costs are above all other PKA race fee's this year other than YOU think they should be. Think I will be giving it a miss and spend the weekend club racing at Hoylake. Cheers all the same Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 andrew why dont you just shut the **** up:cool: Stuart, You take some bl00dy good pictures of racing mate but articulate comment is not your strong point is it. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8015 Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 1. Not now - has been for some years.If you knew that why did you need to ask 2. £2.50-no idea where you got that idea from but its wrong.Sooner or later the class 8 master will set me straight on that, but I have heard him mention that there is supposed to be a small charge paid by non-WSYC members. 3. You dont think its right to judge on past perfromance - We differ its the only meter I know.That's not what I said at all Rich has no past performance to judge him on, this event is being organised by him, seems unfair to judge him on someone else's performance. I know he was so impressed with the beach and organisation at the Ainsdale 6 hour race that he decided he was going to try and organise a last gasp that would be in the same league. I've never done a last gasp before but I gather that this will therefore be different, and improved. 4. Whats changed from every other PKA event this year? - Just smacks of having a dig at the FED clubs - Yeah, but Ainsdale is a FED club, Sefton prefer the FED and when I've talked to Rich he has not come accross as having any personal vendetta against the FED. Now other people in the PKA and indeed the PKSF (who are insuring not organising the event) may have axes to grind, but as far as I know they aren't in the loop! Answer one question for me rich What has changed from all other events at £10 to be doubled for me at this event. Are the fee's that high for using the beach and the clubs facilities over those at Hoylake? give me a beleivable reply and I will gladly pay the double rate. I have every respect for Rich trying to put the event on but up to now 2 weeks away what do you know? the clearest information has been forthcoming since I have been putting some pressure on.And you use controversy very well to find out what we all need to know Thanks Andy for creating enough pressure to get answers. As for all you people happy to pay £20 a day - Gray will be only to pleased to hear it. Just wonder how happy you would be if the Supercup cost £40 for a weekend?? and £200 for a 5 race season!!!!! and the PKA series likewise. People want to support paying more rather than backing a movement to get the costs down - how very odd AndrewYour maths is confusing me now. This years supercups have been 1 day events for £10 (£15 if you pay on the day). They have been combined with PKA series racing on the other day for convenience, insurance and other reasons, yet to enter the PKA races you had to pay the appropriate fee also - I don't know what that is because I haven't entered, as a WSYC member I have used the day for practice away from the racing fleet. Somewhere above £10 or £15 is mentioned. So that makes £20 per race weekend if racing in both events. The difference here is that the idea is £20 for a weekend although only 1 day will have a race....???? I have no desire to see supercup fees rise, and when I get a license so I can enter the PKA series (but not actually get a place as I'm not PKA) I would prefer the races to be affordable, BUT if the supercup is not breaking even then something needs to be done. In other sports it would be possible to apply for funding for such events through the NGB, but we unfortunately have 3 contenders for that role and that debate has already made me sick more times than I like to recall. If I have understood correctly, the sports council won't recognise us a sport until we have a certain number of official participants (I believe the BBC are aiming to register enough people to get this, although not all will actually be buggiers never mind racers) so we probably can't get money that way. The sponsors have been great in providing prizes etc. but maybe their support would be more effectively utilised in financing the overheads? If we look at the Ainsdale 6-hour race in isolation, Sefton council must have ploughed a lot into that event over and above what Gray usually lays on for supercups. We had barriers and rangers patrolling them (not totally effectively but they were there), we had toilets, rangers picking litter, a podium appeared from nowhere and a PA etc. AFAIK the council provided all of those things as their contribution (may be wrong on that), can you imagine the cost of hiring fencing and toilets for an event, never mind rangers (who admittedly would probably have been working the beach anyway). So no I'm not supporting an increase in fees, I am saying that we need to be realistic about what it costs to put on a good event, and we need to think seriously about how we can finance these events. Raising fees is the obvious solution although undesirable, I'm sure other options are being investigated but perhaps we can be more helpful in suggesting other options rather than just complaining - I'm not saying don't complain, please do let your true feelings be known, I'm just saying try and do something constructive as well. RICH - We are still unclear as to why FED members other than Ainsdale are required to pay extra for the last gasp? The bottom line is, why do I (and Andy, and many others) have to pay £5 more than our FED colleagues in the Ainsdale club and members of PKA? If it was £5 more for non-FED it would make more sense, but then, why should BBC, SPKA, BKSA etc. members have to pay more? Big-Jon - thanks for the clarification on licenses. I still plan to get one anyway in looking to the future! JIM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovekylie Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I have one Question is the supercup run by the PKA or Fed ? because if it is run by the Fed do PKA members who are not Fed members pay more to do the supercup ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Jim - Happy to see that in the main we are think along the same lines. 1. Was in response to the event being indicated as a joint PKA/PKSF venture not and insurance issue. This has now all been confirmed. 2. Its my understanding that at an organised event at WSYC we ALL (WSYC members included) pay a fee - fixed amount or per entrant - to cover the use of the clubs facilities on that day. 3. Its a PKA event - was not indicated as a Rich Brazier only event - I am not singling Rich out for any sort of personal critism far from it - I have been on the PKA committee and know how difficult it is - I was stating some facts as I saw them from attending thier events this year. They were very poor. Did anyone know when registration was or where or when the races were starting - and as I said they were going to run through a motar range at Pendine. As for as I am aware the PKA are running this and their reputation for poor events precedes them - I was just seeking assurances and got none. Indeed the facilities at Ainsdale were great and the council and the club deserved the praise they got for it. It showed the potential the organisation had if not the beach shame it was compromised by a PKSF/BBC event that did not even take place. As for the FEES - we wait with interest if we will get any sort of justification. Sorry about the fee's and the maths confusion - I am overstepping my mark here and being quite involved with the Supercup and further events going on this year at Hoylake what you dont know at the moment makes it quite ambiguous. Lets just say that if the Supercup was a weekend long event on its own - I doubt many would be happy about £40 a weekend fee. As for the Supercup making a loss - thats becuase the assets are not included in the calculation as Gray explains - Becasue of the support from the races and from the sponsors of this series of evenst there is no reason all things remaining equal for the fee's to increase next year - unless you want prise money - But then again why no just give Gray a fiver when to register to save him having to write the cheque out to himself ;-) I know what it costs to run an event - done it enough times and £10 per pliot more than enough if you get 40 or more turn up - If you have volunteers from the local club then its pennies. . This has been a good discussion and many are wiser for it with respect to fee's licences timetable etc. We still await a few important matters to be resolved. For me as its Rich's descision - he should drop the stupid £5 unjustifiable fee for one - Make the event £10 for all encourage everyone to the event. As for a final note - has it been confirmed that the race will take place over the entire beach this time and not resticted to the little space we had to run the 6 hour in? Big John / Ainsdale club - cant you bring some pressure to bear as joint organisers to get the PKA or Rich or whoever it is actually running the event to see some sense on the fee's or answer the questions. Sure you would want it to be a success more than anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Bailey Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I have one Question is the supercup run by the PKA or Fed ? because if it is run by the Fed do PKA members who are not Fed members pay more to do the supercup ?Strange question Nev? The Super Cup is run by Graham......with help from others, but it's his.....not the FED's or the PKA's. It was associated with the PKA this year (2004) to ease the logistics for pilots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I have one Question is the supercup run by the PKA or Fed ? because if it is run by the Fed do PKA members who are not Fed members pay more to do the supercup ? Supercup is a standalone organisation started by Gray Steel and run by him with a small dedicated group of assistants. Everyone no matter what the background pays the same fee's for the events. PKA non FED, BBC - ALL THE SAME. Funny enough PKA race series this year - ALL THE SAME FEE no decrimination between FED clubs etc. which is why its all a bit odd. They also charged £10 for all the 1 day racing events? 6 races a day in all - not just 1! and at Hoylake that fee includes £1.50 or so per entrant or a fixed fee for the use of the facilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Bailey Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 ....with a small dedicated group of assistants. What us minions ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaRRy Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Ok lets get one thing straight For all events held at Hoylake this year every one paid the same fees whether they were a member of WSYC/PKA/BBC/GPA/ITV/channel five. As for fees that are being charged for Last Gasp I guess the numbers turning up will tell us wether its really a problem. Of course if you are member of WSYC(or any other FED club) and want to go you could save yourself a fiver and join Ainsdale club as well (which would be free as already a member of Fed and have FED insurance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySmith Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 What us minions ;) Some of us are Maxions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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