from land flying to water......

[muppetdude1599968590]

from my brief experience of watching people transfer from land to water ive come to the decision that its best to accept your starting from scratch......

 

guaranteed failure is the expectation that "ive done this /that for x years" and so success will be easy on the water.............

 

ive witnessed the humbling experience of watching learners fly a kite with power required to waterstart and froze despite being "this/that"

 

just an observation having helped a mate get waterstarting after 3 hours of flying a lei -previous expereince knowing /understanding the wind window and with humble expectations..............

 

just i read so much on this forum with the assumed ease at which landboarders / buggiers etc can pick up their land kites and expect to be up and away due to their previous learnt skills..............

 

i progressed from using landboard as teaching aid - fun in itself - and yep it helped me - but buggys i find little of value to aid kitesurfing progression

 

i await knifes and pot throwing from the buggy/ ram air brigade

[akamini]

I learnt to kitesurf 2 weeks ago in Egypt having landboarded for 18months. My rate of progression was faster than others with little kite flying experience. Although it took me a few hours to learn to water start, I rarely ditched the kite, whilst most the others were stacking the kite on each attempt. When I got up and planing, the position is a bit different to landboarding, but turns are just the same - as soon as I could go back and forwards I tried some turns and hey presto, just the same as a landboard. I guess jumping is also just the same, except I didnt get chance to try many. So I guess I dont really agree with what you say - I think if you can fly a kite well you will learn faster, and if you can landboard it will be faster again.

[8015]

You have mentioned this several times (OK not everyone will have seen older threads), and I could probably agree to an extent.

 

I have been mainly buggying for the last year, whilst most of my mates have been landboarding with a little surfing. There are now a reasonable bunch of us with all the kit to start boarding for real and we are starting to get out - I'll need to report the progress afterwards. An interesting point is that one of the guys tried a buggy for the second time a couple of months back and announced that there was actually a lot more to it than he had imagined as a boarder - and that it was very different. I am hopeless with a landboard. So yeah, I will agree that they are different sports and anyone assuming they can cross over just because they can do one might be surprised. Personally I think kiteboarding is going to require a certain natural adeptness and feel which some people will have and some people won't, some can learn and others are just never going to get.

 

But I don't think you have to assume that you are starting from scratch.

 

Yes the kites are bigger, the control systems are different and doing things in the water is much more difficult but any experience you can bring with you is going to help. Landboarders will probably bring a bit more balance when they get up on the board (anyone who does any board sport is likely to have that), buggyers will have the sine wave flight path down to an intinct although they will have to get the hang of the handling of the new kite first. Personally I come from a kayaking background - it might sound irrelevant to you, but I have a lot of time in the boat surfing river waves and sea waves, edging, cartwheeling and generally getting extended trashings which may (don't know yet) give me a feel for the interaction with the board on the water, and certainly helps me brave the constant dunkings required to learn to waterstart.

 

I'm not expecting too much (well I don't think I am), I realise that it may take me all summer to ever get a single reasonable run on the board, and that I might not get one even then. So far I've had a few dragging sessions, and 2 short sessions trying to waterstart - the first was late in the day and I was getting cold, the second was terminated through gear failure, but I was up briefly during both sessions which was actually ahead of what I'd expected. I have no idea how many hours it's going to take me to find the spot where I'm not over or under edging, first I need to get to the stage where I'm not so surprised to be up that I make a violent movement and lose it all.

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, if anything I write makes it look like I'm assuming it will be easy, it reads wrong! It took me a couple of years to learn to roll a kayak (admittedly I can teach it in a couple of hours now) and it was well worth it, I'm sure kitesurfing will be too!

 

I was going to head to the coast this evening, but the little green men aren't shaking the trees hard enough

 

JIM

[muppetdude1599968590]

akamani i agree totally about landboarding - 2 weeks in egypt is fast tracking so i would expect very rapid progress - yes there are simialrities but landboarding with wheels is far more forgiving of trimming errors - on water mistakes usually end up in you getting dumped -

 

boater i agree to an extent - i came from windsurfing - but i made sure i treated myself as a complete novice despite my vast experience of open sea water, wave environment etc etc etc - hence i learnt to fly thru the cold winter and landboard before taking on the water..............i just seem to read aload of assumptions made on this forum and yet in reality have seen those with timescales disapoint themselves cos they have assumed their experience in buggying/static flying will fast track them on the water.....

 

yes the kites are bigger -the reason why its so different and the fact that landboards / buggies dont move when your starting off and if you get it wronmg attempt number 2 is few seconds away unlike the water where alot of time is wasted frustratingly re establishing positions etc etc

 

interesting what instructors think..............i always tell people dont put pressure on self cos once ur up and away second nature comes and then the skies the limit.

 

i also agree some people will never cut it on water and to some extent on landboards - fact of sporting life -

 

no mention of ram airs yet.phewwwwwwwwww

[angus8ken]

even landboarding is a completely diferent sensation to kitesurfing. i started kitesurfing (still learning though) on an arc 840 which i had been landboarding with for nearly a year previously, undoubtable knowing exactly how what the kite was about to do helped speed up the learning process a load but board control is a whole new board game (no excuses for the pun ). i think landboarding does help but is not a substitute for time on the water

[carlos_climber]

I learn't to landboard with a fs maniac 7mt, on my lesson I was up and planing second powerdive and then never looked back (used a lei on the lesson - but we'll try not to mention them again ). Without the 6 months flying my kite on land I think it would have been difficult. Same thing ...saw Tone out on his 3rd or 4th time on water...sceaming upwind and popping jumps. All your land board skills cross over...kite, upwind and jumps - it does help if you board with a similar kite. I did find going out on a bigger board and smaller kite really helped..you milk the kite for all its power but don't get so many problems with being overly powered up - and here your pre learnt kite skills definately come into play.

 

All the other stuff...tides, water conditions - agree a lot of learning to do there.

[sunset]

In general I find

1 none flyers it is 75/25 against showing them a board after a days lesson

2 land flyer used to scudding only, most will get to the board and maybe get up.

3 Buggy jockies prity much all get up breifley

4 Atb Riders usualy do slightly better than the Buggiers but not much.

5 wake boarders / wind surfers progress to the board at the same rate as anyone else with the same kite experance but once riding progress faster.

 

I know this is very general but it gives an idear that the more kite skills you have the easer the lesson will be but it will still take time and a lot of practice.

[tom1599968574]

even landboarding is a completely diferent sensation to kitesurfing.

try landboarding with a dirtsurfer. the whole deck has to lean so it feels much more like your on a water board.

 

your not going to have to learn from scratch, you can fly a kite and thats most of the hard work! when i learnt, like carlos, i was up and planning almost straight away whereas the other guys were failing miserably. the difference? i knew how to keep the kite in the air and in a neutral position whilst i concentrated on getting the board on my feet. the other guys were concentrating on the board and losing the kite almost everytime. when up and planing, i also knew how to work the kite to keep powered up and which direction the board should be going. some off the others got up but then almost went straight down again because they dived the kite and then got it stuck at the edge with the board going too far upwind or killed the kite by going too far downwind.

[kite chaser]

well ive been boarding(land) on my leis for 2 years and went to the water yestrday and was planeing out to sea and comeing back it was a peace of p**s ive never had a lesson etc and i could get up first time so

[Tom183]

I'm in the process of crossing over (buggy -> kitesurfing), and feel like the kite experience was mostly useful, especially how the kite feels in various parts of the window, effects of apparent wind, etc, and what to do with the kite under those conditions (go downwind, scrub speed, etc). However, never having boarded before (skier), that part is taking some time - on balance, I've only dropped the kite 3-4 times in 3 sessions (less than an hour each) trying to get up, and can operate solo with no problems (self-launch and all that).

 

I'm at the point now where I'm pretty consistently getting up on the board, but not quite properly working the kite to maintain power (next session I think I should have it). I'm pretty sure that's ahead of the curve for non-kiters, but not as far along as a wakeboarder on an easy kite - I'm using mid/high-aspect, which might be hurting a little at this stage but shouldn't hurt for long.

 

I think the biggest thing I learned was just how different the kites are - small foils on handles turn easily (sometimes even before you want them to), large LEI's on bars are much much slower to respond. Have to think a LOT further ahead, and get used to waiting... And depower is pretty amazing when you're used to "with brakes" vs "without brakes" (and not a lot of difference).

 

I was probably a lot more scared of the power than non-kiters, because I have first-hand knowledge of what it's like when things go wrong. I know what an overpowered foil feels like, and the amount of power needed for kitesurfing was setting off those alarms - but after some static flying and body dragging to get used to the power and the feel of the kite, it's starting to feel more natural now. Far enough out on the water, you've got plenty of distance to just let the kite drag you if you get it in a bad position (unlike on land).

 

All in all, I think the buggy experience will be more useful when I'm working on going upwind and jibing - knowing how to handle the kite in those conditions definitely takes some time, but I'm familiar with how it works from buggying.

 

Definitely don't feel like I'm starting from scratch, and although I definitely understand there's a lot left to learn, it's primarily board control and getting used to the different response of an LEI.

 

(and jumping, of course! )

[mattyw1599968632]

When I first started kitesurfing I came from a background of 10 or so years of windsurfing and delta wing flying so I understood the wind window well. I found flying the lei's no problem at all, just a bigger, slower, more powerful (obviously!!!) version of a delta, but had a fair bit of trouble getting a rail in out on the water and constantly ended up doing the walk of shame back up the beach after being dragged downwind!!! I only got about 6 flies in before the trade winds dropped off and we were left with 5-6 months of gusty westerlies which we can't kitesurf in here in Sydney (particularly if just beginning). So I took to landboarding during this time with ram airs (sorry to be the first to mention them!!!).

 

When the season for kitesurfing started again I took my blade II 6.4 out on the water on its handles and took off while everyone else used 12 lei's. Within 15 minutes I was heading way up wind and jumping. I then pulled out my lei next time out on the water and could do almost all the things that I was doing with my ram air. So I think that the landboards obviously create a great advantage in terms of practice for out on the water. I have since started buggying as well, and although it is far different to riding each of the boards (and not just that you're sitting down!), your kite skills can only improve with the more flying you do regardless of what form of traction kiting you are undertaking, and can then apply and adapt these skills to other forms of kiting.

 

I still prefer using my ram air out on the water but it's nice to have peace of mind that my lei wont sink if I drop it!!!

[muppetdude1599968590]

some vaild points folks............maybe what i meant was is it not best to think small when starting ?- friend of mine buggied for years etc just assumed he get up and going -end result disapointment

 

ive always been a believer in target setting to aid progression - small steps =

giant strides psychology ................

 

the wonderful thing with this sport is there are so many variations tweaks grabs etc etc on a single skill so you never stop learning

 

well im off to practice my slobs -stay safe the winds blowing

[Bob Monkhouse]

some vaild points folks............maybe what i meant was is it not best to think small when starting ?- friend of mine buggied for years etc just assumed he get up and going -end result disapointment

Fair point MD. I must admit to thinking it was going to be a piece of **** when I started kitesurfing recently. I found that the kite control side and getting up was, it was the 'eyes, ears, nose and throat full of seawater' thing, then once up, the 'woah, what's going on with this bouncy castle ride' thing that wasn't.

 

So I reckon any kiteskills (the more the better) are invaluable. I find it hard to imagine starting from scratch with no kite or 'board on water' skills.

Other student in my lesson spent whole time recovering his crashed high aspect ratio kite from the water whilst I spent the whole time, getting up and trying to stay up (not dumping kite).

 

I also found that being used to flying wellpowered on landboard, doing waterstarts on sand, etc to be a big help.

 

Cheers Bob.

[ewing]

just thought i'd chime in and say thanks for the interesting read & that this thread reminded me of how newb snowboards think they can board powder with ease, or hit the halfpipe or terrain park, gladed runs or slalom etc (i mostly stick to groomed runs or powder) etc with a 5minute learning curve. - not gonna happen for 99%+ of all people. it's like taking road cycling skills and training to a downhill race! just goofy to think that way, in my opinion.

[JohnT]

I was reading this post and hoped that a few of you could provide some more detailed instruction regarding the following:

 

I have just started kiting and can plane for long periods of time but I ride the board flat and I see other kiters with the edge of the boards in the water.

 

How do I do this? Do I push down (50% / 50%) with both heels and lft my toes up? What is the proper technique based on your experieces. Also do you bend both knees and squat (I was told this was a no-no). I was taught to thrust your hips forward but it leaves me a little upright and I feel like I should be a little lower to the water. Maybe just lean back?

 

Any tips would be helpful.

 

JT

[ewing]

I was reading this post and hoped that a few of you could provide some more detailed instruction regarding the following:

 

I have just started kiting and can plane for long periods of time but I ride the board flat and I see other kiters with the edge of the boards in the water.

 

How do I do this? Do I push down (50% / 50%) with both heels and lft my toes up? What is the proper technique based on your experieces. Also do you bend both knees and squat (I was told this was a no-no). I was taught to thrust your hips forward but it leaves me a little upright and I feel like I should be a little lower to the water. Maybe just lean back?

 

Any tips would be helpful.

 

JT

although i've never kite surfed, i do snowboard fairly well.

 

you'll likely want to bend your knees slightly, but not a lot or rigidly - not like a noodle either - but don't lock your kneecaps vertical! (hard to put into text)

 

you won't likely "push" the edges of the board so much as move the board "with" your body... contract your abs a bit & thrust your waist slightly foward & back. (seriously) - you'll find yourself transferring weight from your heel to toeside edge & riding on each one respectively, i bet. if you transfer enough weight, you'll start to cut a turn... a lot of weight, a sharp turn - but unless you are cutting a really REALLY hard turn, as if to stop on a snowboard to avoid a collission, it shouldn't ever feel like you're really pushing on your heel or toe. (when i say toe i mean toe-side = ball of your foot) however, riding on one side or the other cutting a long straight line will result in some feel/potential muscle burn - but not really "pushing."

 

as for the motion of the weight transfer over center... imagine a hoola dancer, only forward and back... or a corny surfer in an old cartoon riding a wave or standing on an ironing board pretending to.. something like that.

 

try balancing on a board placed over a rolling pin, or other cylinder, and doing this perpendicular to the pin. (so that the "tip" and "tail" of your board can "sink") or on a balance board/ball setup (quite difficult)

 

it's hard to explain... but think, very naught dance moves...

 

 

hope that helps & that i haven't given any bad advice!

 

oh, and as per snowboarding in my own experiences, or windsports in my neighbour's - don't try too hard! relax a bit! become "one" with the snow/wind/water & "move with it" & you'll have it!

 

cheers,

richard

[kiteingcolin]

just come back from a half decent session at ainsdale, (god that place is soooo good) and saw this bit about crossover, so i just had to dive in , even though i have not read all the posts from start to finish, last year i taught 100 guys and girls(10 girls) a right mix of x windsurfers, snowboarders,wakeboarders, buggie and land board guys, dingy saliors,and no previous!! and guess what!! the wakeboarders were miles in front (jumping on the second day) (steve and matt)second best were the snowboarders, then the most disappointed, due to high expectations,were > 1st windsurfers, then the land kite users, the no previous were a lot easier to teach !! so there you go, thats the facts as i found out from last year!! I was a windsurfer for 26 years, did it help?? only later on when i was going out in big waves! O , and i was fast at getting a wetsuit on>

[ewing]

woohoo! that's good to hear snowboarders seem to have a bit of a leg up on others re: the learning curve!

[muppetdude1599968590]

there u have it from an experienced instructor........pschologists wud av a field day brings me back to good old fashioned realistic taget setting

 

.....just have to say colin chap the skate park was only good today not the usual brilliant due to wind direction and mushy waves

 

any one going to rhossi next few days?

 

stay safe folks

[Bob Monkhouse]

woohoo! that's good to hear snowboarders seem to have a bit of a leg up on others re: the learning curve!

Sorry bro but I reckon snowboarding helped me about as much as football

 

Wakeboarders are renound (sp) for picking up KS the quickest.

Can't understand why you've found people with no kite experience pick it up quicker Col but I bow to your experience.

 

Any tips on how to stay up once up would be appreciated. I am managing it sometimes but not consistently. I actually think landboarding may be holding me back here as I am trying to edge too much (pushing board out in front of me) instead of relaxing and standing up on the board.

 

Using a 160 Airush Switch now which I am finding a lot easier than the fookin massive bouncy directional I used in my lesson.

 

Cheers Bob.

[ewing]

my guess is newbs are more mouldable in terms of training because they have no bad habits or paradigms about how to do the sport.

 

just like i can teach a non skateboarder to snowboard in a day, but it'd take 4 days with a skateboarder who keeps trying to peform the motions as if he's on a skateboard... & ending up on his face.

 

just my thoughts on it.

[Bob Monkhouse]

I'd say fair do's on the boarding side. That's been proved to me all too well and skate/snow is a well known problem crossover I think ? and being up on the water is nothing at all like being up on a landboard/snowboard/skateboard so far. I can now appreciate why wakeboarders are fastest to progress.

 

It's the kite flying bit I can't understand. Shirley if you are used to flying a powered up kite whether buggying, landboarding, etc you have a big head start over someone who isn't ?

 

If i'm wrong then maybe I'd better stop recommending people to learn to fly a kite very well before they think of going out on the water ?

 

Cheers Bob.

[ewing]

I'd say fair do's on the boarding side. That's been proved to me all too well and skate/snow is a well known problem crossover I think ? and being up on the water is nothing at all like being up on a landboard/snowboard/skateboard so far. I can now appreciate why wakeboarders are fastest to progress.

 

It's the kite flying bit I can't understand. Shirley if you are used to flying a powered up kite whether buggying, landboarding, etc you have a big head start over someone who isn't ?

 

If i'm wrong then maybe I'd better stop recommending people to learn to fly a kite very well before they think of going out on the water ?

 

Cheers Bob.

i don't even own a real kite - but i cannot possibly disagree with your theory & would NOT suggest you tell ppl grab some gear and hit the water without learning in a park first... (as is the reaction i'm sure you expected from me/others)

 

:beer:

[kiteingcolin]

my guess is newbs are more mouldable in terms of training because they have no bad habits or paradigms about how to do the sport.

 

just like i can teach a non skateboarder to snowboard in a day, but it'd take 4 days with a skateboarder who keeps trying to peform the motions as if he's on a skateboard... & ending up on his face.

 

just my thoughts on it.

> spot on!!> is that you kite frog?? Paradigms is such a good way of explaining why the easy crossover is not that easy, windsurfers take the hardest knocks, they will never let go of the bar so get rag doll bashed down the beach, even after ther first draging they insist on never letting go,board skills are so much harder to master than kite skills, even my wife can kite, i bet my mum could get to grips quite quickly, not as sure about the wobbly little twin tip in a bumpy sea,

[kiteingcolin]

ps please keep replys short!! i start to lose intrest after a while, my attention span is not as long as my wife would like it, she already gives me hell for not listening to her when i am on here, so when a long reply comes on she starts throwing her empty gin bottles at me.. BE MORE CONSIDERATE!!!!