Tube or ram?

[jelly man]

hey No WIND i was just wondering y u never see a peterlynn or flysurfer or even advance team competing in a major comp. and im sure there are some really good unsponsoredriders out there willing to ride fior a foil company. and beggines arnt the only ones who use foils as i know a guy on a farc who rips and the flysurfer boys are doin kiteloops know. i wasnt saying that only **** people ride foils.

 

and bush flyer this is my point exactly these companies rave about how good these kites are then bring out a lei and spend all there time promoting it. and the rason for this is that evrybody believes that lei's are better . but if the companies flashed themselves about a bit people would realise that they are good kites and maybe even that they are better than lei's

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by bushflyer

hope you dont mean me AND MY ENOURMOUS SIG dude.

 

what i want to know is why advance is putting so much PR and effort into this and yet they hardly mention their flagship foil? im sure robert knows better than anyone foils have the outright performance edge, while lei's near the end of their development potential.

 

No, not you !! As for the big promotion for the Kobra (9-26 knots depower range), where did you see that? I dont see any adds in kiting mags, or sites, just what's written in the advance site, which is not enough I think. As for the Diablo, well this must be a secret project. Dont know what to say.

 

Kite bag

 

peter powell kite

lite flite heavy

lite flite microflite

lite flite radial

rev II

flexi 4ft

flexi pro team (5 pieces)

flexi skytiger 4 ------------sold

flexi B II 4.9 ----------------sold

cabrinha 2,6 trainer NPW

advance IO 9.5 -----------sold

advance Rhea DP 5.5 --sold

advance viper 8

advance viper 11--------- sold

advance diablo 6.4

advance diablo 8.5

advance offroad 5.4

OZONE LD 4.5

PKD century 3.5 soulfly

PKD buster 3.0

PKD buster 1.4

PKD buster 7.0

ADVANCE KOBRA 12.8

==================

Surfactory spider 149

Surfactory batwing 159

PL comp

flying squirrel

swimming cat

yoghurt in a bag for unsafe assh…s faces

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by jelly man

hey No WIND i was just wondering y u never see a peterlynn or flysurfer or even advance team competing in a major comp. and im sure there are some really good unsponsoredriders out there willing to ride fior a foil company. and beggines arnt the only ones who use foils as i know a guy on a farc who rips and the flysurfer boys are doin kiteloops know. i wasnt saying that only **** people ride foils.

 

and bush flyer this is my point exactly these companies rave about how good these kites are then bring out a lei and spend all there time promoting it. and the rason for this is that evrybody believes that lei's are better . but if the companies flashed themselves about a bit people would realise that they are good kites and maybe even that they are better than lei's

 

Hey JELL, the company must go with the flow otherwise they stay out of the big game. It s better to have good products from both worlds (foils and lei's). I think Advance has two major weapons with the Diablo in foils and the Kobra in inflatables. As for competition, Advance is mainly focusing on snow competition with many victories but I hope they will start in the water now that the Kobra comes out. We ll see soon.

[mgs]

This article taken from KiteWorld 2003 issue 03 Jan - Mar.

 

Peter Lynn

Peter Lynn Kites

 

A year ago I would have said that the future of kitesurfing is exclusively with arch style kites (Tube type and ram air designs like our Arcs). Now I’m not even totally sure about this - maybe bridled foils will have a niche. I am sure that the Arch style of foil kite can match or surpass current tube kites by every sensible performance measure. The latest G-Arcs already do in most ways. What I don't know and can't predict is if there is some tube development waiting in the wings. But I don't think so. The tube kite has had 19 years of development and seems to have plateau'd while the Arc has not yet had three years of development and is showing major progress almost by the week. A risk is that tube kites could become such an established standard that they squeeze out the Arc, even if it is a better kite, before we build up market momentum. I think we'll get a few years to prove our point before this can happen though - definitely long enough on current indications. Interesting times.

 

 

Rob Whittall

Ozone kites

 

I might be completely off whack, but if you want performance you're going to have to turn to foils in the near future. Lei's are drag bags and will never bring performance - a single surface wing obviously does not deliver as good performance as a double surface wing. And the depower range is so much better on a more efficient kite. Because a foil generates more power, when you decrease the angle of attack you dump a bigger proportion of that power too. We've found that a 75kg rider can use a 7.3m Frenzy out in the water from 15 to 35 knots of wind. I don't know a single inflatable that can do that. Within the next 5 years inflatable kites will be a thing of the past. If I'm wrong you can all laugh at me .I'm used to it. But I think foils are just round the corner, which is a ****ing good job because we couldn't afford the Legaignoux patent.

 

 

Robert Graham

Advance Kites

 

A couple of years ago all the foil manufactures were just trying to keep the water out of their designs. But in the past few months things have really moved fast. At last some serious manufacturers are working on foil kites and the competition is stimulating. If you look at the latest foils, they are becoming very stable in terms of aerodynamic stability. We've been doing a lot of research into the 'comfort' o of flying a tube kite and think we've built this into our latest foil design, the Diablo. Foils seem better suited to wave riding too, they float better in the surf than tube kites and you can relaunch them by flying them backwards off the water really quick. In the future ,I think that short lines are going to become a bigger part of the sport and foils are better suited to short lines because of their bigger power range. I'm also developing tube kites at the moment, but I can't really understand all the fuss about them. I get much more pleasure from flying my foil kites.

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by mgs

This article taken from KiteWorld 2003 issue 03 Jan - Mar.

 

Peter Lynn

Peter Lynn Kites

 

A year ago I would have said that the future of kitesurfing is exclusively with arch style kites (Tube type and ram air designs like our Arcs). Now I’m not even totally sure about this - maybe bridled foils will have a niche. I am sure that the Arch style of foil kite can match or surpass current tube kites by every sensible performance measure. The latest G-Arcs already do in most ways. What I don't know and can't predict is if there is some tube development waiting in the wings. But I don't think so. The tube kite has had 19 years of development and seems to have plateau'd while the Arc has not yet had three years of development and is showing major progress almost by the week. A risk is that tube kites could become such an established standard that they squeeze out the Arc, even if it is a better kite, before we build up market momentum. I think we'll get a few years to prove our point before this can happen though - definitely long enough on current indications. Interesting times.

 

 

Rob Whittall

Ozone kites

 

I might be completely off whack, but if you want performance you're going to have to turn to foils in the near future. Lei's are drag bags and will never bring performance a single surface wind obviously does not deliver as good performance as a double surface wing. And the depower range is so much better on a more efficient kite. Because a foil generates more power, when you decrease the angle of attack you dump a bigger proportion of that power too. We've found that a 75kg rider can use a 7.3m Frenzy out in the water from 15 to 35 knots of wind. I don't know a single inflatable that can do that. Within the next 5 years inflatable kites will be a thing of the past. If I'm wrong you can all laugh at me .I'm used to it. But I think foils are just round the corner, which is a ****ing good job because we couldn't afford the Legaignoux patent.

 

 

Robert Graham

Advance Kites

 

A couple of years ago all the foil manufactures were just trying to keep the water out of their designs. But in the past few months things have really moved fast. At last some serious manufacturers are working on foil kites and the competition is stimulating. If you look at the latest foils, they are becoming very stable in terms of aerodynamic stability. We've been doing a lot of research into the 'comfort' o of flying a tube kite and think we've built this into our latest foil design, the Diablo. Foils seem better suited to wave riding too, they float better in the surf than tube kites and you can relaunch them by flying them backwards off the water really quick. In the future ,I think that short lines are going to become a bigger part of the sport and foils are better suited to short lines because of their bigger power range. I'm also developing tube kites at the moment, but I can't really understand all the fuss about them. I get much more pleasure from flying my foil kites.

 

Thanks MGS. That sums it up from people who know their stuff better than any single minded little fart who just repeats what the product ads say and what numbers are served to him .(NOT YOU, BUSHFLYER). Robert sums it up nicely : Drag bags. Anyway , fashion is temporary.

[bushflyer]

okay no wind i get the idea:D a little paranoid from the smoking conducted that day. looking forward to the email about the KOBRA, spill the beans dude.

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by bushflyer

okay no wind i get the idea:D a little paranoid from the smoking conducted that day. looking forward to the email about the KOBRA, spill the beans dude.

 

havent had the chance yet.. rain, cold, bad wind. But I ve already sent you a mail about a week ago. Check it out. I m telling you about the Diablo. Have you got that one?

[bushflyer]

yeah i did. mines at the factory now getting looked at. i'll keep you posted as to the root of the problem. i agree with what you said in the mail and on here. never was very fashionable anyways;)

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by bushflyer

yeah i did. mines at the factory now getting looked at. i'll keep you posted as to the root of the problem. i agree with what you said in the mail and on here. never was very fashionable anyways;)

 

GOOD COZ I HATE FASHION VICTIMS !!!!!!!!! LOL

[jelly man]

hello no wind are you talking about me. cos if so i am deeply hurt as i was just wondering why foils are never in comps or ever seem to promote any thing

i hear what you are saying about the snow but if there good on snow they must be good on water 2.

i never the new the arc had only been out a few tear i thought it had been around for ages.

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by jelly man

hello no wind are you talking about me. cos if so i am deeply hurt as i was just wondering why foils are never in comps or ever seem to promote any thing

i hear what you are saying about the snow but if there good on snow they must be good on water 2.

i never the new the arc had only been out a few tear i thought it had been around for ages.

 

Here we go again. I dont mean you jell, but if you look through the forums you ll see who I mean.

[bushflyer]

'pump me up' by any chance:D ? i know there are others...

[Boardstupid]

So if you get a load of foil desighners/ manufacturers in a room together what they say must be true.Lei,s sell a lot more units than foils ,but i guess all the lei boys must be stupid eh?

The thing is that a lot of the lei boys have done the foil thing and think at least for the moment that the lei has the edge, that includes me i gave up on flysurfers after i had a go on a mates lei.

Kiteworld has not realy given the same sort of space to lei desighners at least i cant recall seeing it, maybe you should all read up on lei design before you judge.

And finally i know three kitsurfers who have sold foils to get in to leis none went back to foils.I also know one who sold lei,s to get in to foils, The latter is now once again a lei man.

 

El Mick

[jelly man]

sorry NO WIND i am a bit slow on the uptake lol.

 

yeh ive heard of this pump me up character apparently he's a right little $hit, well so ive read on kiteforum

[RegentBaker]

Hehe nice discussion.

 

Well i bought Slingshot Fuel 15m2 . I hope it was a good deal.

I can still return it if i want to.

 

Now i have a blade 7.8m2 and Fuel 15m2....

They maybe overlap eachother, How much more power do i get from the Fuel 15m2 ?

 

My wieght is 65 kilo, and the seller thought that a Fuel 17m2 would be to heavy for me. I guess he is right.

[yowi]

As far as I can gather the only real advantage of tubes is they turn faster.

With all the ease of use advantages of FS kites (minimal setup time, solo launch, recovery, relaunch, etc) plus at least equivalent performance and better lifetime why would I purchase tubes?

One experienced opinion given to me was there is a stage when learning tricks is eased by the turning speed (but by no means obligatory).

I've just the last two weeks learning on a titan 15.5 whenever the wind was there and those things are awesome. So much grunt on tap but so light and easy to handle. Never once did it have me ****ting my pants or reaching for the quick release. One session the wind picked up and between my lack of skill and the 180 board I was unable to edge hard enough to keep the board speed down so I headed back to swap kites and the measured the wind at 17 knots! Any half decent rider should be able to hold onto for another 5 knots. I weigh just under 80kgs btw.

 

And with all the profile tweaking and bridle work that is still progressing foils are definately the future.

[carlos_climber]

And with the voodoo looks like they've got the turning speed issue sorted out as well.

 

For the majority of flyers who are weekend sailors the high end performance issues don't seem to matter that much.

 

I read of people spending loads of sessions just getting up and going...I saw tone on his 3rd or 4th time on water popping jumps - going upwind...on his titan and my psycho. Didn't look like he was being held back by flying foils.

 

But then jumping big on the psycho is not so difficult....kite to 12 and pull the bar and then fly..

[yowi]

I wish I'd thought to try jumping.

Oh well, next time.

[prof]

Why do foil flyers always have to justify their purchase with statements like ease of relaunch,minimal setup time and easy solo launch? As a fairly regular visitor at hunstanton( the home of the flysurfer importer) I have noticed that flysurfer is in decline there and slingshot has taken over. There are still a couple of die hards on titans the the majority are now lei boys.

As for listening to chris calthrope about perfomance of foil's he's sponsored by flexifoil and the extracts from kiteworld are all from foil manufacturers. So what else would you expect them to say?

Now waiting for the flames!

[carlos_climber]

It's 80 percent rider.....

 

and even if there are all the performance gains due to turning speed..most of the riders don't make any use of them.

 

and

Why do foil flyers always have to justify their purchase with statements like ease of relaunch,minimal setup time and easy solo launch?

 

well they are pretty good reasons for a weekend flyer..........for someone of my skill level I can't see any advantage for me from getting a lei.

[mgs]

looks like Naish have developed a depowerable foil for kitesurfing......does look very familiar though...

http://212.0.252.16/video/Naish-Move_freefly-2.zip

Info sourced from the BKSA web site

[NO WIND]

Originally posted by mgs

looks like Naish have developed a depowerable foil for kitesurfing......does look very familiar though...

http://212.0.252.16/video/Naish-Move_freefly-2.zip

Info sourced from the BKSA web site

 

yes, it doesnt look AT ALL like a frenzy....

The point is, I thought naish were inflatable toy makers. how come they start copying foils ?

[mgs]

“Of course it looks like a Frenzy”, what else could it possibly look like. Well there you have it a well established LEI manufacturer now having a go at foils.

[Adrena1in]

I was talking to my kitesurf instructor about the whole foil / LEI debate, and he reckons it's all going to move towards the foils, though he forsees a combination of the two. Inflatable leading edge and double-skin construction perhaps.

[bushflyer]

naish have an ex flysurfer desinger on their team as well as buying the rights to some of the flysurfer technology. a knowledgeable source tells me its still two generations behind FS's current lineup (with the gap widening on the arrival of psycho 2)