Ross Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 this was the thought i had. A Roll bar wider than Peter's and maybe a bit taller aswell, that should make it easier to flip it right way up if the buggy roles and give you some more room if it roles. For the steering i didn't think having exposed parts was the best idea (the pole from the steering wheel to the buggy frame can also have a cover but i forgot to add it at the time). the pole enters the hollow frame and connects to a universal joint and then travel strait up to the "T" in the frame where the rotation moves a bar from side to side causing the wheels to turn because they are fixed to the frame and the moving piece. As far as i know there are a couple ways to achieve this. The feet rest's can be put on the bar between the front wheels. and for foot straps i suggest the ones that go under your heel like on some of popeyethewelder's buggies. The heel support isn't in the images. It's a bit more complicated than the lever idea. Good Luck with the buggieing. images not to scale 1 with and 1 without the front right wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeyethewelder Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Where abouts in the UK are you now Andy, I am in Lincoln and maybe could help you with adapting a buggy, personnaly I like the lever/spring idea....keep it simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Another idea i have had at some stage was to incorperate two levers onto a kite bar, i was, in my case, wanting to use the levers to apply more brake line pressure, but, in your case, the levers could become the steering. Have a bar semi permanantly attached to the buggy, with push bike type levers at each end, these levers pull cables (like applying a brake on a push bike) that would steer the buggy. the bar can move, left or right, to steer the kite, and not affect the buggy, then pull one lever to steer left, pull both to go streight, etc. this would keep both hands on the bar and on the steering at all times. can you follow my bad explaination? this could be added to almost any buggy, and not be a special build. There are also, or once were, twist type bars, that alter brake line pressure, food for thought? One thing to keep in mind, STOPPING!!! i would recommend a simple lever that attaches to the rear axle, like what is used on a (dare i mention the word) blokart, very effective, and simple. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeyethewelder Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 I knew I had seen a buggy purpose built for those with leg problems and surprised it wasn't already posted on here, well I have found it. click on mano mossa http://www.viper-parakart.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 bingo well done carl , that is the one i was thinking of when i said i was sure id seen one before , then i found a totally new idea which looked good too. The viper looks like a very good option , even able to fly with handles !!! that is a good design if you can use handles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Yes thats the idea I had for the steering, two posts, one on each side, connected to the front forks/foot pegs. A good idea to put a brake on too, good thought Peter. Should have a rool bar, makes it much safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 2 posts? something to impale yourself on maybe if things go pear-shaped. If it were me, I'd be shunting that one out the door, it could be difficult to grab a pole from the opposite side of your body, say if the left side was controlling the kite and you needed to grab the left lever. You could connect the 2 levers with another bar, which would be better again, but the only thing that I would be concerned about this would be, you're already flying with a bar, it could lead to entanglement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 can you just imagine how busy his hands are going to be? kite bar, steering bars, brake, butt to scratch..... the more i think about putting the steering onto the bar its self, the more scene it makes, to me anyway. the biggest problem i can see with a solid bar linked to another bar, linked to the forks, and the same on the other side, is all the connection points and keeping them working, and working well enough to stake your life on, and other people on the beach/park as well. problem #1 with the 'post and rail' is the post getting in the way of the lines, hook a slack brake line on one and ?????? problem #2 as mojo stated, left hand on handle, left hand to steer, opps just used the right hand and went wrong way, powered up and ?????? too many options???? problem #3 let me think and i'll find one not wanting to kill someones idea, just chucking dust in the air and seeing which way the wind blows it. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2008 Great link popeye, thanks! This is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, except having one central lever that can steer left and right. Having separate handles on either side makes me think that I'm going to have to have some pretty quick hand swapping going on to correct oversteer or go from heading left to heading right. But then I realise that I'm an idiot and because moving one lever will affect the other, I'd be able to steer in any direction from either lever, nice. ("either lever" sounds weird) I'm basically going to get someone to try and copy this basic design, but probably with a roll bar similar, but taller and wider, than peters. I'm picking up a second hand PL buggy tomorrow to mutilate and experiment with, hopefully I'll find a car repair place or local welders to adopt a project and help me out. I got in touch with the guys at mobious who made the four wheeled buggy with a steering wheel and talked to them about my plans, just got this back from the guy who built the buggy: "Steering: We initially tried to have a joystick, as in your design, but the force to turn it when the buggy was stopped or moving slowly was a bit excessive so we bought a second hand 'teleflex' cable steering system (the type used in boats) and fitted a rubber boot from an auto parts store to stop sand getting into the cable. This worked flawlessly, and you could add one of those sweet chrome knobs that bus drivers and truckers love so you can spin the wheel with one hand. I'm sure a joystick as in your drawing coul work if the leverage is enough, but a small round wheel compared to a large metal stick seemed a bit safer on reflection. Locking the steering sounds a bit scary to me, these things can pick up a hell of a lot of speed, as I'm sure you're aware, and the ability to quickly edge upwind is kindof your only good brake to slow down, same with the straightening spring thing - it was actually quite useful with the wheel, you could turn the wheel so the wheels were pointed one way and then move the kite with both hands to tease the buggy around until it was facing the right direction and then straighten the wheel before you got a huge power dive in. Kite control: Having used the buggy with the steering wheel, I quite happily flew unhooked with my hand in the middle of the bar and we also used velcro ankle straps to hold wind/kitesurf harness spreader bars onto the frame of the buggy, so you could hook the bar in when you got tired. You can actually carve the kite up and down quite well with it hooked into one of these loops adn you can shift them forward or backward to affect how gusts hit the buggy (ie make it head up or bear away from the wind). Frame: The three wheeled buggies are pretty stable, but we (the instructors) have flipped them on quite a few occasions, as this would be difficult to recover from, we decided that for this buggy we needed a more stable wheelbase that would be as close to flip-proof as possible. We cut off the front bearing on the three wheel frame and welded a stainless crossbar and supports onto it. Then we added pivots so the wheels could turn parallel (as in a car) and a tie-rod between the wheels. This was easily done using bolts, threaded rod etc. In my opinion, the four wheel buggy with a steering wheel was way more fun than the regular three wheeler (would you drive a reliant?!) although Timo was dissapointed as he couldn't show off to tourists with his 'two wheel' trick as on the three wheelers. Honestly, this thing was crazy, I spun it out at least 720 degrees and it didn't flip. Was like being allowed to have a go-kart on the beach! As for building from scratch, we were pretty successful in using an existing buggy, in fact we didn't modify the back at all, apart from the harness hooks which were velcroed on. All we needed was an extra wheel and some work done on the front bar, I think we modified it in a day or so." It sounds like a pretty good way to go, and I've been looking at the teleflex system and even gokart steering systems which I think might both work well if I decide to try four wheels out on the buggy. Talking about having steering control on the kite bar; I started a thread on a welders forum asking for advice and this type of system came up in the conversation (http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8404), it seemed to get a bit too complicated for me and the thought of so many cables and stuff getting in the way, plus not being about to easily release the control bar scared me off the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 15, 2008 Report Share Posted November 15, 2008 there is some good reading there andy, well done. Libre are making a 4 wheels buggy, as standard the front axle kit is available to fit to (i think) most of their range. there is a cheap Libre V-Max, with some kites too available around brisbane somewhere http://www.extremekites.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=8606 um, sorry, you are in england (?) Could the steering wheel be adapted to this, does libre make a 'disabled' buggy? I shall ask the question and see what the response is. Are you there Gerti? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 16, 2008 Report Share Posted November 16, 2008 so maybe its a libre 4 wheeler with a cable steering wheel and fork hoist steering knob ? . if you harness the kite bar then it means you can grab the extreeme left or right of the bar and save arm effort. id have to say the beach is the best spot to try some thing like this. that would solve the problem of buggy balance i said would occur with an out of square 3 wheeler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I'm about as technikal as a bread knife and essentially lazy, I still like the steering wheel idea with the steering knob. After watching the vids from the English guys, the thing that struck me the most was that the bar worked really well, but the main problem seemed to be that the flyer couldn't actually relax, it seemed to me to be a pretty uncomfortable flying position with a bit of a stretch to reach the wheel. I thought of a joystick, but that could be a problem if it was situated on the 'wrong side' for the flying on the day. I still like the wheel idea, whether or not it is run by cables isn't so much of a problem, but it does have to be easily reached and not likely to be a hindrance to the kite bar. I'd be going for the wheel, but raking it back somehow, so that it sits mid thigh maybe, easy to reach and hang onto with one hand, without being too much of a danger of injury should the kite want to lift you out of the seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 After putting the predicament to someone more brainer in this household, His idea stemmed from the hydraulics from a yachty auto pilot, which was essentially a unit attached to the tiller with coordinates keyed in directly. Not a strong unit by any means and it was some years ago, but the possibilities coulde be quite possible with remote control steering now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 I'm just back from an 8 hour round trip to pick up my soon to be bastardised buggy. I'm ready to start annoying anyone within a 100 mile radius who's in possession of any welding equipment and try to get a rough 'prototype' as soon as possible. I'm going to try and keep things as simple as possible to begin with, three wheels, simple hand levers on each side similar to the german(?) buggy a couple post back. From there I'll be able to decide if/how/when to make changes or improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 what buggy is the basis for your creation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosexual Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 What about 'fly by wire' ? There are some damn strong, quick and relatively light servo's than can be powered by light LiPo packs that would last for ages. The servo could be coupled to the boat type cable steering or to run a gear onto rack and pinion type. What ever plan you came up with could be controlled by a rocker switch for left and right mounted on both sides of the bar so you could steer and fly with either hand and use the other to brace yourself. There are a few hurdles to work through like fail safes, ability to steer if QR is used, etc but it's another idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 18, 2008 Report Share Posted November 18, 2008 wow that would be cool , a proportional switch on either side of the bar and a secondary set on the frame rails in parallel for the qr issue, a curly chord with a plug that could QR too to join the bar rig to the frame rails units, thumb operated on the bar i guess, because your fingers take a semi permanent load and wouldnt always be free to use, but finger operated on the rails tucked under the tow points. that would be legendary. ooh and a solar panel on the back of the frame to give limitless buggy range /time and keep the battery in top shape. mate if i ever loose my legs its a 4 wheeler, roll bar and the system i just described based on Aeros idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 The servo's and thumb controls on the bar would be ridonkulously awesome, I can dream. I'm keeping it simple to start with and getting basic hand controls sorted out via levers, then I'll try find someone who can translate what Aero and Jimmy are on about. So the buggy is a PL standard buggy with a backrest fitted that I found on ebay (the one the guy was advertising as an Ozone buggy because it had an Ozone sticker on it, I'm not entirely convinced he hadn't stolen the thing), it's ripe to be mutated as soon as I find a willing welder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 In what way are these extra long sideframes beneficial? Do they move the sitting position more forward and away from the rear axle? That's exactly what I'm looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeyethewelder Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 In what way are these extra long sideframes beneficial? Do they move the sitting position more forward and away from the rear axle? That's exactly what I'm looking for. Could be wrong but I think they are used on the PL Race Buggies, they will take the wheels further back making it more stable at speed, so the answer to your question is yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 biggest problem you will have with that buggy is the seat, sat on and not in. you will find that without use of your legs you will fall over, and you will have to hold yourself upright all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeyethewelder Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 get a new seat from the buggybagman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 hay i had a thought, if you wanna go way over the top..... get implants into your brain so you only have to think about steering and it happens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 thats what happens when i get tired after 4 hours or so , i get 4 km down the beach and then wonder how i got there and who i passed while i was thinking about food and drink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 im starting to get inspired to make a buggy for others , what a rewarding project that would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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