wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hi all, So following a climbing accident a couple years ago I'm in a wheelchair but still like to spend most of my time outdoors and basically get in as much trouble as possible. I sick of getting dragged out of the wheelchair by my kite (it really freaks people out too) and want to work out a way of kite buggying. I cant use my legs at all so need to be able to steer the buggy by hand, I use a control bar rather than handles so I'd have one hand for each. At the moment I'm thinking that the best thing to do is to have a central lever between my legs, attached to front fork so that I steer left when I push the lever and vice versa. I'm thinking that having the lever lock in position would be a good idea (as long as it has a quick release system) so that I'm not having to hold the lever all the time and can have two hands on the bar 80% of the time. Something like this: I'd have to extend the frame too, so my legs are supported separately from the front wheel and out of the way. Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of anyone in a wheelchair kiting and what adjustments or modifications they made to their rig at all. Any info or advice would be really helpful. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Joel Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hi Andy, First off welcome to Extreme Kites. There was a person kiting in a wheelchair in Elwood some time ago, it pops up as a topic here now and again. However I have never seen someone transfer from a w/chair to a buggy. We have a good range of engineers on this website, and lateral thinking geeks that can help you out! I'm sure Pete, Jimmy, JKS, Ruudje, Nigel, Peter or one of the other buggy builders / modifiers will step in with some good ideas. What you have up there looks really good, push away and it turns left, pull towards and it turns right. I'm just thinking if it will get in the way of your kite control system or lines. Is it a hazard if you get pulled out or do you strap in with a seat belt? Not sure if a "lock" idea is good, there will be emergency times you need to avert quickly, that extra factor of locking the steering could be a real issue especially at high speeds. Perhaps a tensioned spring or system, like with the old exercise bikes where you twist the dial an it becomes harder to turn the wheel. Have an adjustment where you can have it fairly stiff. I think it is important whatever outcome we all come up with, that it's feasible and can be built. Regards, .Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 first thoughts are a lever as you have in the pic sprung to centre (and alter the weight of the springs) with tension adjustment to get your buggy going straight and a good deep rake angle on the head to make it go well in a straight line with 100mm of trail for a bigfoot duro. weight transfer as far forward as possible (unlike the pic ) so an over power puts you into a slide and automatically scrubs some speed for you. Obviously you fly a bar on your kites to help keep the valuable second hand free unless your a kite guru , so i can see how this might work. being a sports bike rider i have often thought about this, my ultimate idea so far is a chin mounted sensor and hydraulic or electric ram , just move your lower jaw to steer in relationship to your snug helmet. but the last ones a dream unless this more preferable lever idea fails. Keep in touch with the progress , there are lots of folks that can assist in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Thanks Joel. I was thinking of keeping myself strapped into the buggy. I have complete upper body strength and control, but without leg muscles to help, it's pretty near impossible to stop myself from getting pulled by the kite with out using a hand to counteract, that would leave me needing three hands, one to steer the buggy, one to control the kite and one to keep me balanced. I was actually thinking of fixing a spreader bar across the buggy and fixing the chicken loop directly to the buggy rather than myself, any advice in that area would be great too. As for the lock on the hand steering lever, I was thinking of something like a bicycle brake lever fixed to the top of the steering lever itself, so that as soon as my hand was on the lever it's unlocked and free to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hey Andy, Welcome to XK .... I see the questions and answers are pouring out already (gotta love this place) Here's my 2c ...... I do a lot of flying with one hand myself .... so next time I am out, I am going to put/visualize myself in your position and see what ideas come to mind. Do you have control of your hips or thighs ? .... sorry about the personal questions ... Marty P.S. I climbed for 10 years .... what happened to ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Thanks Jimmy. I hadn't thought of having the lever sprung to centre, that sound like a pretty good idea. Would it be enough to keep the buggy on track without the need to 'lock' the lever in place do you think? PS - When you are already planning on how to kite if you become paralysed from biking you know you have problems! I have a climbing buddy who's planned out how he can do everything id he ends up in a wheelchair, and another friend who paraglides and even built their new house as completely wheelchair accessible incase they ended up that way, I think they're both completely mental, in the best possible way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 ooh and a steering stop wouldnt hurt max lock 40 degrees off line perhaps ? hopefully the sprung centre idea helps, a bit like a joystick for games, that keeps the race car in a straight line when there is no input ,no worries. Im guessing your arms are powerful as anything so a strong spring set shouldnt present a problem on the lever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hey Andy, Welcome to XK .... I see the questions and answers are pouring out already (gotta love this place) Here's my 2c ...... I do a lot of flying with one hand myself .... so next time I am out, I am going to put/visualize myself in your position and see what ideas come to mind. Do you have control of your hips or thighs ? .... sorry about the personal questions ... Marty P.S. I climbed for 10 years .... what happened to ya Hi JKS. No worries about any questions at all. I have no movement in my legs or hips at all, I have my ab's, but without the legs to help balance is difficult, near impossible when strapped to a kite. Sit on the floor with you legs straight out infront of you and your arms off the floor, see how far you can lean to one side and recover without using your arms. Then try the same thing again but with your legs off the floor too (and without moving them to counter balance) and you'll see how little I can go in any direction before I can't recover to an upright position again, if a kite is pulling on me then trying to counteract the pull is pretty much physically impossible for me. I was abseiling from the top of a crag and my (poorly placed, by me) protection gave way, fell 65ft onto rocks and got a bit smashed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Andy .... I get the idea. Good to see your spirit is still firing on all 8 65 feet .... ooch ... I have attended a few climbing accident scenes .... they are never good Do you own a buggy already or starting from scratch ? What sort of kites are you flying ... Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Wheelchair Andy! I hope some of the guys can get you up and running asap! Then you can put us all to shame! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Andy .... I get the idea. Good to see your spirit is still firing on all 8 65 feet .... ooch ... I have attended a few climbing accident scenes .... they are never good Do you own a buggy already or starting from scratch ? What sort of kites are you flying ... Marty Marty, Mountain Rescue saved my life without a doubt, on top of everything else I had an 'open-book' pelvic fracture and had ruptured both my femoral arteries, so I was basically bleeding out internally. Their doctor was on the ball and called in a chopper straight away, I was on the operating table within an hour. Even then I was resuscitated three times I havent bought a buggy yet, I was debating whether to get one and have it adapted, or start from scratch and have my own built. I paraglide (and need a buggy for that too, I sit in it and get people to throw me off) and thought about getting one buggy made for the two sports so I dont have to travel around with two buggies all the time. Only problem is, to be able to paraglide with it, the buggy needs to be 20kgs max, so it's have to be made from ali rather than steel. I fly a Flexifoil Rage 2.5m and a HQ Beamer 3.6m on a bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Best suited for you would be a parastorm buggy, or one based off that, one with the high back for support, that thing would weigh under 20kg! Give this guy a lap belt! btw, I think you would be best off on a bar rather than handles. Much easier to fly with one hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Cool Andy .... you have my brain ticking over now ... will have a cup of tea and think But back to my morbidness ... which crag ? And where are you based now ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Cool Andy .... you have my brain ticking over now ... will have a cup of tea and think But back to my morbidness ... which crag ? And where are you based now ? I'm a pom and was climbing in the UK at Stanage Edge in the Peak District. I ski a lot so head down to Thredbo or Coronet Peak in the winter. I'm in the UK at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy22 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 i would think a scratch built buggy would have more merrit and more chance of success for kite flying. im sure some one has made some already , but you could make one better see these links : http://www.kiteworldmag.com/news/new-disability-kite-school/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Would that be on gritstone by any chance ...... I have read many an article about some of the the trad climbing that goes on there ... x 10 X ratings and R ratings ..... RESPECT ! Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 i would think a scratch built buggy would have more merrit and more chance of success for kite flying. im sure some one has made some already , but you could make one better see these links : http://www.kiteworldmag.com/news/new-disability-kite-school/ Wow, great link Jimmy, thanks. That's the first I've known of anyone in a wheelchair getting into an adapted buggy, email has been sent! Would that be on gritstone by any chance ...... I have read many an article about some of the the trad climbing that goes on there ... x 10 Yep, Yorkshire gritstone, great stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKS Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 The answer ..... nice one Jimmy I think the tennis ball adds a bit of youth to it ... lol Marty P.S. Gritstone ..... Gods own rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhot Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Hi Andy, Just been reading the thread and I'm just concerned about having a lever in front of you to possible be injured on. Thought maybe the crab buggies may suit you a little better, stability wise and then maybe the steering level could be mounted by your side. [ATTACH]3888[/ATTACH] Just seem to think this style of buggy, would mount you better, possibly less chance of OBE and hopefully not a buggy in your back. I'm sure us guys should be able to come up with something cheers JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Welcome Andy!!! All right lets throw some ideas around. First up, yes I would suggest you strap in, but ONLY if you have a roll bar!!!! Can't see a twin use kite/paraglide buggy, keep them seperate, and specialised. Why do we need 3 wheels??? Four might be better? Easier to balance weight, and leg length. Seat moves forwards and backwards so riders pull is centred in buggy, according to leg length/size of pilot. Steering, hand operated....... why not two levers, one on either side just outside of the side rails. I see them attaching to the ends of the footpegs, so they will move opposite to each other, nothing to hit as well. A steering wheel would be fine if your strapped in? Would have to say custom made, nothing close to what your after. Find a local buggy maker, or willing engineer. You might find some support through your local para support people, they might point you towards a willing person. Lots of willing support here to bounce ideas off. Good luck!!!! Keep us informed please!!!! Why not make few tandem buggies, able bodied up front, para's in the back. Set up your own race series!!!!! I am sure you'll get a few para's wanting to compete!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Nice links Jimmy, I want a wheel myself now. If going that way, I'd be adding one of those steering knobs that (back in ancient times) you'd get on tractors n trucks so that you don't have to take your hands off the wheel to change directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 hi and welcome. i have a problem with being able to hold the full power of the kite down, so i went to a system of attaching the kite directly to the buggy. with a quick relese and kite killer, it can be very safe, not as safe as 'normal' users, but not far off. biggest problem is flipping the buggy, i solved that with a roll bar. You could have a system for steering, same as the old outboards on a boat, a line running accross in front of you, incorperated into you kite connection system, just like how we attach a 'walk of shame' line. GOOD LUCK. Hope i have helped a little. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelchair andy Posted November 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 hi and welcome. i have a problem with being able to hold the full power of the kite down, so i went to a system of attaching the kite directly to the buggy. with a quick relese and kite killer, it can be very safe, not as safe as 'normal' users, but not far off. biggest problem is flipping the buggy, i solved that with a roll bar. You could have a system for steering, same as the old outboards on a boat, a line running accross in front of you, incorperated into you kite connection system, just like how we attach a 'walk of shame' line. GOOD LUCK. Hope i have helped a little. Peter Thanks Peter! Your set up looks similar to what I had in mind for attaching the kite directly to the buggy, I have a couple questions though. I take it that pulling on the red string releases the pulley, and therefore the kite, from the system? Do you connect a chicken loop through the central pulley in the picture, or just connect to the bar with some cord or rope? How did you end up on this design, did you try using a chicken loop and prefer this set up for ease and quickness? Are the other pulleys in the picture just spares or used in the system somewhere? I was thinking of having my system similar to yours but with a carabiner in the middle rather than a pulley, connecting to the bar via push or pull to release chicken loop like the Ozone megatron set-up. Any thoughts or advice from your experience would be great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 Thanks Peter! Your set up looks similar to what I had in mind for attaching the kite directly to the buggy, I have a couple questions though. always happy to help out where possible. I take it that pulling on the red string releases the pulley, and therefore the kite, from the system?100% correct Do you connect a chicken loop through the central pulley in the picture, or just connect to the bar with some cord or rope? No. i use a strop, a rope that connects to Both Handles, the strop passes through the pulley. The Quick release can be connected to a Chicken loop, if you use one, or remove chicken loop, and attach quick release in its place. Using a chicken loop will move the bar too far away from you when seated. there is a bit of trial and error needed to sort out the length between you and the bar, or in my case the handles. How did you end up on this design, did you try using a chicken loop and prefer this set up for ease and quickness? Are the other pulleys in the picture just spares or used in the system somewhere? i ended up with this system after having too much pain from failed operations (when they say rest for 3 mths, i went kiting instead), not being able to handle the constant pulling and crushing on my pelvis using a harness i had to find a way of releaving the pressure, and ended up with this system (i dont call it a design as i'm no designer). I have almost always used Handles not a bar, but you will need to use a bar. i have used a bar with this system, and its still great for me. The other pullies are spares, yes. I was thinking of having my system similar to yours but with a carabiner in the middle rather than a pulley, connecting to the bar via push or pull to release chicken loop like the Ozone megatron set-up. Any thoughts or advice from your experience would be great!How you choose to connect the bar to the Straps will come down to personal preferance. Firstly start with what is simple, and progress from there. My only quick release in the system is what the rdd cord is attached to, replace the pulley showen in my picture with a line connected to the bar. Simple. if you want anorther release system in between the two, go for it, you can never be too safe. Expeciallty when you flip the buggy in shallow water, buggy pins you down, you NEED to get out real quick, or drown! i did it once, lucky it was sand in my mouth not water, hence the roll bar. Think seriously about a roll bar. if you are strapped in, and flip it, a roll bar will save your neck being snapped, i was glad when the cracking in my neck stopped. be careful no matter which direction you take. best advice is never fly alone. Any thing else i can be of help with, please just ask, i dont mind at all. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carltb Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 have you thought about useing a depower kite instead of a fixed bridal. alot more wind range and in your position id say alot safer. pm popeyethewelder he is the uk guru of buggy design. ill send him a message on flexifoil forum with a link to this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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