Re Peter Lynn

[Gilbert Taylor]

Hi i am thinking of buying a Peter Lynn 6m Hornet , i have spoken to some people on youtube and they says only good for beginners they dont have much pull on them would that be right.is there any other brands out there in Australia,i am after a power kite with huge pull on it 6m or more, any help Appreciated.

[windstruck]

What do you want to use this kite for?  Buggy engine, static flying, something else?  Depending on your intended use and skill level there could be a few ways to go.  A whole other way to go is the Born-Kite NasaStar-3, a series of single-skin NPW style kites that get as large as 12.5 sqm. The NS3 line tends to be less "lifty" but I doubt the big Hornets have much lift either. Lift in a large FB kite can be a dangerous thing which is why I bring it up. 

Depending on conditions, large FB kites will pull like tug boats; slow movers but able to pull stumps out of the ground. 

One nice thing about the NS3s is that being single skins they are a little easier to get aloft than kites with more fabric and thus more static weight. Again, not knowing your desired use this may not be relevant. 

[Gilbert Taylor]

Hi

 I used to have many years a go was a Peter Lynn 5m , it was lost in a house fire, i am wanting is  a kite with heaps of pull that will drag  us along the sand and do a some stunts with what are blade kites,Regards Gilbert

[nigel]

Welcome @Gilbert Taylor,

So what was the 5m Peter Lynn kite you had?

A Hornet is a lower aspect power kite (low aspect, fatter kite, slower, more solid power, while a high aspect kite is very thin, fast through the air, makes power only when moved at speed or used in it's high end wind requirements, the power can come on and off very quickly).

Are you looking for a kite on handles, or a bar??

Any kite will drag you, given enough wind.

The bigger the kite, the less wind will be required to drag you.

Down side, big kites are slow, turn like a bus, and have a smaller usable wind range.

The smaller kites will be quicker through the air, turn faster and produce power very fast.

Down side, power is explosively quick on some small kites, think of being attached to a snatch strap of a v8 race car 

Power also disappears just as fast. 

Everything happens quicker on a smaller kite, and the landings are usually harder than a bigger kite.

 

What do you mean by "want to do stunts""?? 

Let us know what you want to do and we can help point you in the right direction so you don"t make a poor purchase, or get a kite that is not suitable for your needs.

And where are you based??

Plenty of people on the forum here, and some one might be a local to you and be happy to show you some of their kites in action to give you an idea as well.

[Gilbert Taylor]

Hi thank you for the message. I am wanting a kite with plenty of pulling power something I can do a few stunts in the air like spinning the kite just normal tricks you do with kites it doesn’t have to be extremely fast. The last kite I had was slow in the air which really didn’t worry me but had pulling power, I brought it at kite power years a go when they were in Geelong. But it had straps, are bars better I am in the Ballarat area thank you Gilbert  

[nigel]

Stunts like this??

 

Or this??

 

[nigel]

Or a bit tamer?

 

Or even kites with almost no pull but maximum control?

 

[nigel]

Bars or handles???

Each is different.

most kites are only designed to fly on one and can't be used on the other.

Handles give more control, and you don't have to be attached to the kite to fly it.

A bar needs you to wear a harness, and you are attached to the kite via a loop with a quick release.

The problem is the fact that by the time you realise you need to pull the quick release, your already in trouble.

A bar gives you the ability to sheet the kite in or out (adjust the angle of attack, and therefore the power), while a kite on handles doesn't allow the power to be adjusted, you steer the kite to different parts of the wind window to adjust the power.

There are a few fellow kiters up your way.

There was a small kite fly at Dean a few weeks back, pity you didn't contact us here earlier, as you could have gone along and seen some kites in action and meet the local kiters. 

[SoutherlyBuster]

Once you fly static, ie stand still and just fly the kite, you will get bored and crave for more. Skidding along the ground down wind can be fun, but you will soon get bored and want more. Then enter landboarding or a kite buggy, infinitely more fun. The reason I say landboard or kite buggy is since you are in Ballarat, not much opportunity for water action. Landboards can also be used for down hill runs when the wind is no good. For the land action, could just go for one of the single skin options. Like Star mentioned earlier or the FlySurfer Peaks. I’ve heard the Ozone Access is also very well suited for the potentially gusty inland conditions. 

[Gilbert Taylor]

Thank you very much everyone for your help,what i have been told is i need a fixed bridle Kite with bar or handles but i would like 6mtrs or more  so i can be dragged along the grass or the sand.anything out there

 Regards Gilbert

20 hours ago, nigel said:

Bars or handles???

Each is different.

most kites are only designed to fly on one and can't be used on the other.

Handles give more control, and you don't have to be attached to the kite to fly it.

A bar needs you to wear a harness, and you are attached to the kite via a loop with a quick release.

The problem is the fact that by the time you realise you need to pull the quick release, your already in trouble.

A bar gives you the ability to sheet the kite in or out (adjust the angle of attack, and therefore the power), while a kite on handles doesn't allow the power to be adjusted, you steer the kite to different parts of the wind window to adjust the power.

There are a few fellow kiters up your way.

There was a small kite fly at Dean a few weeks back, pity you didn't contact us here earlier, as you could have gone along and seen some kites in action and meet the local kiters. Hi yes its not far from me but didnt see it until it was over

 

 

[nigel]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Taylor said:

Thank you very much everyone for your help,what i have been told is i need a fixed bridle Kite with bar or handles but i would like 6mtrs or more  so i can be dragged along the grass or the sand.anything out there

 Regards Gilbert

 

A 6m fixed bridle kite will drag you along the ground in as little as 6 knots (11 kph wind), in fact in a buggy you will not be needing a 6m fixed bridle kite in any more than about 10 knots (19 kph).

In fixed bridle kites, a 6m is not a small kite, and is closer to the larger end of the scale for these kites.

The largest fixed bridle are just over 10m in size and fly like a bus, and take the whole sky to turn around.

 

I'd be going for a middle of the range size fixed bridle, about 4m.

This has the best selection of abilities of both large and small kites.

Fast through the air, but not too fast, good pull (not delivered too slow or too fast), some float if you jump (when you become more advanced), and can be fun to fly in light winds, and a real challenge in stronger winds (or usable in a buggy or with a board later on).

 

If you intend to fly a FB of 8m or more, inland, be very careful for thermals.

A kite that size doesn't need much wind, and as a result, the light winds you need to fly (fine, sunny, light winds), equal the perfect time for a thermal to develop.

[andy666]

On 25/09/2018 at 12:26 AM, nigel said:

Stunts like this??

 

Or this??

 

I haven’t watched those videos in a while, but they are still amazing. 

[Gilbert Taylor]

The street kiter video is amazing how they jump so easy

10 hours ago, nigel said:

A 6m fixed bridle kite will drag you along the ground in as little as 6 knots (11 kph wind), in fact in a buggy you will not be needing a 6m fixed bridle kite in any more than about 10 knots (19 kph).

In fixed bridle kites, a 6m is not a small kite, and is closer to the larger end of the scale for these kites.

The largest fixed bridle are just over 10m in size and fly like a bus, and take the whole sky to turn around.

 

I'd be going for a middle of the range size fixed bridle, about 4m.

This has the best selection of abilities of both large and small kites.

Fast through the air, but not too fast, good pull (not delivered too slow or too fast), some float if you jump (when you become more advanced), and can be fun to fly in light winds, and a real challenge in stronger winds (or usable in a buggy or with a board later on).

 

If you intend to fly a FB of 8m or more, inland, be very careful for thermals.

A kite that size doesn't need much wind, and as a result, the light winds you need to fly (fine, sunny, light winds), equal the perfect time for a thermal to develop.

Thank you Much appreciated for all your help, i rang a few kite shops they all say different things, one said i need a depower kite, other said fixed bridle some said 6mtr others said a 10 mtr

On 9/25/2018 at 12:41 AM, nigel said:

Or a bit tamer?

 

Or even kites with almost no pull but maximum control?

What type of kite is this one in the video

 

[nigel]

13 hours ago, Gilbert Taylor said:

The street kiter video is amazing how they jump so easy

Thank you Much appreciated for all your help, i rang a few kite shops they all say different things, one said i need a depower kite, other said fixed bridle some said 6mtr others said a 10 mtr

What type of kite is this one in the video?

 

In the street kiter video, they are using LEI's (Leading Edge Inflatables).

These are depower kites designed for the water. The front leading edge and the spines are pumped up with air, to make the kite frame, and allow it to float if you crash it in the water.

They can burst if you crash them on land.

 

Did the stores know where your flying and what you want to do??

As I said before, with a kite on handles, you are not attached to the kite and can let go when it goes wrong, if you learn on a depower (with a bar), then you MUST use a harness to fly the kite.

You have to find and pull the quick release when in trouble, good luck finding it in time.

There are a few of us who refer to the quick release by another name, "The ouch strap".

Why, because by the time you realise you need to pull it, it's ouch first, then pull.

Depower kites are often not as efficient as fixed bridle kites, so unless you know which kite people telling you to buy, the sizes given are going to be all over the shop, as you have experienced.

Yes, a first time depower of a 8m to 10m is a good middle of the range size kite, the same as a fixed bridle 4m to 5m kite.

Make sure you know what type of kite people are talking about before you note the size.

 

I was in a kite shop one day, and a customer came in wanting a 10m foil (fixed bridle). The shop owner and myself said to the person that a 10m is way to big.

"But my mate said a 10m is a good starting size".

Yes, a 10m is a good depower size, a fixed bridle is more powerful and you will want smaller.

After about 10 minutes of trying to make this customer understand the huge difference between the two styles of kites, I offered to give a demo of how powerful a small fixed bridle kite is.

The wind was 25-30 knots and I had a 2m kite, I launched the kite and was dragged to the location where the kite was on the ground when it launched.

I then slowly made my way back to my starting position, where the customer and his mate were.

I then ran full pelt at them and swung the 2m kite back over my shoulder, needless to say they had expletives coming from their mouths when I jumped clean over their heads with a meter to spare.

The customer then rejected my offer of a go on a very small kite. 

 

The kite in the video below is a fixed bridle, and wisely, the user has what are called "kite killers" on (the wrist straps and bungee attached to the brakes of the kite).

This is what can happen with a big kite in strong winds, at any point, a wrong landing could have resulted in injury.

  

The kite doing the tricks is called a Revolution.

A four line ballet kite that can do amazing things.

 

[SoutherlyBuster]

Let’s put i another way. The amount of pull a kite genrates come from three things:

1) How strong the wind is blowing, pull is proportional to the square of wind velocity. So if you are not moving the kite, this is the contribution from the wind alone.

2) The apparent wind, the relative motion of the air with respect to the kite. When the kite moves it creates an extra wind in addition to the wind velocity with respect to the ground. Just imagine a fly sitting on the kite, what wind would it feel. So for example as the kite accelarates from the ground to zenith, this velocity with respect to the ground is seen in addition to what the wind is generating. Sining the kite up and down does a similar thing.

3) The angle of attack of the kite with respect to the wind the kite sees. This contribution of load is roughly proportional to the angle of attack .... until it stalls. Depower kites can change this. Fixed bridle kites can not change this.

 

So form this you can see, with a fixed bridle kite, you can only control the kite load via option 2) or fly it to the edge of the wind window where there is not much pull. So when a gust comes you have to stop sining the kite and hang on, or bail out all together. Put it another way fixed bridle kites are either on full blast or nothing.

Depower kites give the user options 2) and 3) to control the power, so when the gust comes in and it is too much for you, depower, stop sining and slowly put the kite to your extreme left or right and wait.

A lot of the kite sports these days need fine depower control, so manufactures are moving away from fixed bridle kites.

Fixed bridle static jumping, proceed with extreme caution. Remember there is no depower control, so if the gust pulls you up there, and if the gust stops while you are up there, you drop like a bag of spuds which can result in hospitalisation.

Totally agree with Nigel, if all you want to do is skid along the grass, just get a 3 or 4 square metre fixed bridle kite (cheaper). If you want to later on get into kite buggies, landboard and kite surfing get a depower kite (more of an investment but well worth it for the future, 10 square metre kite size would be a good start).

Regards,

Norman.

[BobM]

Norman,

I thought that by putting pressure on the brake lines in a fixed bridle will change 3) a bit (maybe not as much as a depower)

 

BobM

[nigel]

8 hours ago, BobM said:

Norman,

I thought that by putting pressure on the brake lines in a fixed bridle will change 3) a bit (maybe not as much as a depower)

 

BobM

No angle of attack adjustment on a Fixed Bridle.

The only adjustment you can make is to pull the "brakes" on. This can have two different effects.

Some FB kites have their brakes mounted a little in from the rear of the kite (not on the very end).

This can work in the same way as flaps in an aircraft, so it can increase lift (pull for us kiters), but more input on the brake line will result in a stall (stopping the kite).

Some kites like a little brake, others will not.

Most FB race kites don't like any resistance on their brake lines, so essentialy the kite is used like a two string kite.

Yet others can and do like a little tension on the brake line to "curve" the trailing edge and produce a bit more power, or can be used to "calm" a kite in gusty winds.

I am sure Norman our resident aero-engineer can explain it better. 

[SoutherlyBuster]

For a fixed bridle kite, pulling in the rear lines as Nigel said, makes the tail end curve down, this changes the camber of the kite and tries to tilt it forward but the rear lines say no, so the rear lines just get tighter and the kite does not change angle of attack. The inceased camber will give some increase in lift. With the depower kites, through the use of pulleys, the kite angle of attack changes and alters the lift accordingly.

With the fixed bridle kites it is a bit of reverse logic, letting the rear lines go a bit slack lets the kite penetrate quicker into the wind, more apparent wind, more lift.